M20F Price

[MATTS875]

Awesome video.

[LevelWing]

I've got a pre-buy lined up for later this week but I think I'm going to talk to the owner and come to some sort of agreement on price ahead of time. I've talked to him about it before and he said he's willing to entertain reasonable offers but I don't want to go through a pre-buy just to find out that he's not willing to budge or not willing to budge very much. Any tips on helping this process?

[airbornepinata]

I would treat this purchase no different than purchasing a home. You agree on a price assuming that there are no problems or squawks. Sign a contract to that effect, then conduct the prebuy inspection. If you find problems, agree that the seller fixes them or if you are willing to take a chance, discount the purchase price and fix yourself. Just make sure that the shop you get the prebuy from is reputable and Mooney savvy.

I just bought mine last month, and because the seller was not willing to pay to get it airworthy (it sat for 4 years), I offered a much lower price after conducting my own prebuy. I was an airplane owner the next day. I also have friends that are aircraft mechanics that are looking for fun projects- which is why I went for it. Good luck!

[MB65E]

The PPI should do most of the negotiation for you. If its an airworthy item most guys will find it. Corrosion is a big one. Look in the Gear wells near all the seams near the spars. Wells could me cleaned to see... Engine mount cracks are hard to find. Ours was cracked on one of the tubes that was near the left lower mount. There may be light surface corrosion that can be fixed. Make sure the engine case is not cracked. Check the engine logs for repetitive "oil leak" fixes that may indicate a cracked case. Don't be emotionally involved! Don't do the PPI in an unheated hangar when it's 20* or on the ramp when it's 105*! All in all, you have the ball, but its not a Falcon either...

Good luck!

-Matt

[LevelWing]

I think what I'm going to do what Airbornepinata suggested. I really don't want to spend the money on a pre-buy only to find out the owner isn't willing to budge at all on the price. I have a feeling that he's not going to want to come down on the price by that much, at least not to what I find to be reasonable, so I'd rather have it in writing first (I'm basing this on a conversation with him regarding the pre-buy inspection). AOPA has a decent starting point for a purchase contract that I can modify as necessary.

[BigTex]

Byron, It depends on what someone is looking for. Quite a few folks, like BigTex, prefer an E to a J. My E with manual gear, hand pump flaps, and manual speed brakes cost about $100 per month all in to maintain. M20Js, M20Ks, C310s, Aztecs have their place but you can't compare them to a C, E or F with a manual gear and a near impossible to duplicate combination of economy, performance and fun. FWIW, I am very familiar with early C models. The J run LOP burns around 2 GPH less at the same speed. That is not insignificant. The better aerodynamics, fuel injected engine,12 extra gallons of fuel, higher gear and flap speeds, and the larger rear seat and baggage areas really put the J in a different league than the C. Not to mention the aesthetics. In fact, the J is as big of a step up from the C as the C is from my former highly speed modified Cherokee 180. No exaggeration. The E gives you the ability to run LOP, which is a nice step in the right direction. The F makes up much of the rest. I freely admit, though, that I would prefer manual gear and flap systems. I have replaced both limit switches in my flaps and I have also replaced my no back clutch spring in my gear actuator, probably to the tune of $1500 or so that wouldn't have been necessary in a Mooney with manual systems. I have never noticed a "fun factor" advantage in either direction. Jim

I understand you guys really like your aircraft and you feel you have the perfect aircraft but saying the J is a different league than a C is a pretty big reach. And aesthetics is in the eyes of the beholder. I personally think the look of my C is pretty damn cool. If you really think about it, the J is nothing more than an F with all the mod's so they should be grouped in with all the other vintage planes. Their overall mission is the same as all the other vintage planes. To jump up in leagues, go with a 231. Now those planes are in a different league. Run smoother and fly higher. If I was interested in a J, I'd spring the extra 10 grand and pick up a K model. More bang for the buck and a serious leap in mission capability. This whole conversation reminds me of car discussions where they debate two vs four doors. Station wagon or coupe, convertible vs hardtop. Mines better for xyz reasons... Finally, I'm getting pretty tired of the arrogance of several J drivers that thumb their noses at folks who choose to not fly a J model. Most of us could of purchased a J if that was a plane we wanted. Evidence is the amount we're sinking into our desired plane which is also for you guys to understand. You feel only J's are worthy of investing any serious dollars into. The rest should only be parted out. I have to keep telling myself to Keep Calm and Fly On (KCFO)

[Marauder]

I would be the last person to discourage you or anyone else from investing money in them. Jim

Pretty funny Jim! Most people look at "investing" as way to get a positive return in the future. In my 23 years of owning the same Mooney, I prefer to use the word "pouring" in your statement. Even the late model Mooneys fall into that category. Most of us who own the older Mooneys do so either because of economic reasons or out of pure love. I fall into the latter category. My Mooney has been with me and my family through the raising of two kids and countless trips. She has treated me well and in return I have become her steward. Besides, if I moved up to an Acclaim S, I still would hear Mike (201er) say his Mooney is faster.

[airbornepinata]

Concerning manual gear vs. electric - I have picked up both types from runways in the past due to hard landings or landing gear up.  The difference that I have seen is that usually the electric gear is up due to absent mindedness, and the manual gear is up due to a hard landing.  This is just based on my experience of working at airports for 17 years now.  I had one electric gear mooney land gear up twice within a short amount of time, so perhaps pilot error has the statistics skewed!

 

So far I have removed:

Mooney M20F electric - twice

Mooney M20C manual - hard landing and gear retracted on bounce - once

Baron - failed to extend gear

C182RG - failed to extend gear

Bonanza - failed to extend gear

TBM 700- hard landing nose gear failure

Yak-52 - pilot did not engage pneumatic system resulting in nose gear failure on landing and post impact fire

C210 - gear lock failure (nose came down mains did not swing forward and lock)

Boeing Stearman - new pilot hit brakes too hard taxiing and it nosed over

Cessna 170 - brakes applied too hard on landing and it nosed over

Piper Pacer - groundloop breaking left main off and landing on wing

[LevelWing]

To my surprise, the owner came down way more on the price than I thought he would, to under $45k. Given this I think I'm going to go forward with the pre-buy inspection. The only issue is that the finance company will only finance up to a certain amount and after that I have to make up the difference. Fortunately what they value it at and what he'll accept is less than a $1k difference. I'm one step closer to owning a Mooney, which is pretty exciting.

[BigTex]

Make sure you have a contract drawn up with the current owner that has them fix any airworthy item. That clause saved me around $4K. Get with an escrow company to work with like AIC. They will handle much of the details, title searches, etc. Also, expect to spend around 10-15% of the purchase price on stuff that was missed in the pre-buy. Virtually everyone has spent that much fixing things the prior owner deferred.

[LevelWing]

Thanks for the information. The plane just recently came out of annual so I'm hoping there's not much that was missed. The mechanic I'm going to use for the pre-buy doesn't specialize in Mooney's but is familiar with them having worked on them before. Hopefully I won't have to spend much on maintenance after the purchase.

 

Out of curiosity, approximately how much would it cost to re-do the panel? Just make it a six pack and replace it with a nice looking metal, similar to what Bob_Belville posted on page 1 (minus the upgraded avionics).

[jetdriven]

Thanks for the information. The plane just recently came out of annual so I'm hoping there's not much that was missed. The mechanic I'm going to use for the pre-buy doesn't specialize in Mooney's but is familiar with them having worked on them before. Hopefully I won't have to spend much on maintenance after the purchase.

 

Out of curiosity, approximately how much would it cost to re-do the panel? Just make it a six pack and replace it with a nice looking metal, similar to what Bob_Belville posted on page 1 (minus the upgraded avionics).

 

 

There is someone here who water jet cuts a 6-pack panel to fit right into your M20F, and its a minor alteration. It also looks absolutely stunning.

 

Replace the panel and reinstall the instruments.

[Marauder]

Thanks for the information. The plane just recently came out of annual so I'm hoping there's not much that was missed. The mechanic I'm going to use for the pre-buy doesn't specialize in Mooney's but is familiar with them having worked on them before. Hopefully I won't have to spend much on maintenance after the purchase. Out of curiosity, approximately how much would it cost to re-do the panel? Just make it a six pack and replace it with a nice looking metal, similar to what Bob_Belville posted on page 1 (minus the upgraded avionics).

I had the right side of my F rebuilt at the annual this past Spring. If you find someone who has the machine to cut it, most of the cost is in the labor for the removal and reinstallation of the components. You should figure 10 to 15 hours of labor depending on the amount work required. In my case they found a bunch of inline fuses hiding behind the panel and I had them convert them all to breakers (hence the change in the breaker area). Before you commit to doing it, spend some time flying it and see what you like and don't like about your panel. You may opt to move some things around and this will affect impact the design. On my plane I move from mechanical to electronic gauges for rpm, MP and FP. Here are a few pictures of my work, before and after: Before: During: After:

[Bob_Belville]

From my avionics bill 12/2012:

"Remove entire instrument panel, fabricate new pilot and copilot instrument panel. Fabricate mount for flush mount Aspen. Rearrange instruments to accommodate new equipment. Etch, Alodine (sic), finish, silk screen placards, and install new instrument panel." 60 hours @ shop rate.

 

In addition to that line item, there were several hundred dollars of charges for fixing things found during the rework, for example:

"Fabricate replacement spacer for prop governor cable mount. Previous bracket and spacer was an autopilot bridle cable clamp and put undue stress on cable due to improper installation." 1,5 hours @ shop rate. 

 

 

 

The materials cost was small. $150 for all "Tefzel Mill spec wire, antennae coax cable, connectors, generic switches, nuts, bolts, screws, sheet metal, general hardware, etc.

 

CBs, jacks, switches were itemized. 

[Marauder]

From my avionics bill 12/2012: "Remove entire instrument panel, fabricate new pilot and copilot instrument panel. Fabricate mount for flush mount Aspen. Rearrange instruments to accommodate new equipment. Etch, Alodine (sic), finish, silk screen placards, and install new instrument panel." 60 hours @ shop rate. In addition to that line item, there were several hundred dollars of charges for fixing things found during the rework, for example: "Fabricate replacement spacer for prop governor cable mount. Previous bracket and spacer was an autopilot bridle cable clamp and put undue stress on cable due to improper installation." 1,5 hours @ shop rate. The materials cost was small. $150 for all "Tefzel Mill spec wire, antennae coax cable, connectors, generic switches, nuts, bolts, screws, sheet metal, general hardware, etc. CBs, jacks, switches were itemized.

I think his number will fall somewhere in between our's. You had the whole panel done, I only had the right side (for now) done. The recess kit for the Aspen takes some time as does the finish work they did on your panel. Mine was painted as a temporary match to the left side and used a cheaper labeling in anticipation of redoing the left side next year. He will probably need new isolation mounts and will probably do some re-arranging as well.

[Bob_Belville]

B26, I agree.

 

I provided the details as a caution that he will run into complications and "opportunities" when he opens it up. E.g., I moved the ignition switch up high on the panel. I like it there rather than hidden down behind the yoke but the wires didn't reach so add an hour to extend... The business about the prop control explained a chronic need to tighten the clamps.   

[LevelWing]

I will wait a little bit to see how the panel works for me as it's setup. I'll probably wait until I'm ready to upgrade the audio panel before I have the panel re-arranged so I don't have to have the panel changed every time. There's a Mooney service center a few hours away and I'm sure they can do it but I'm not sure how much it would cost from them. Of course I haven't bought the plane yet either; I'm going to put it through a pre-buy later this week or early next week.

[rbridges]

I will wait a little bit to see how the panel works for me as it's setup. I'll probably wait until I'm ready to upgrade the audio panel before I have the panel re-arranged so I don't have to have the panel changed every time. There's a Mooney service center a few hours away and I'm sure they can do it but I'm not sure how much it would cost from them. Of course I haven't bought the plane yet either; I'm going to put it through a pre-buy later this week or early next week.

 

absolutely.  go fly your plane and learn it.  find out what you like and dislike about the panel and the rest of it.  Believe me, you could blow $50K on your plane to upgrade it and still find things you want to do.

[Marauder]

B26, I agree. I provided the details as a caution that he will run into complications and "opportunities" when he opens it up. E.g., I moved the ignition switch up high on the panel. I like it there rather than hidden down behind the yoke but the wires didn't reach so add an hour to extend... The business about the prop control explained a chronic need to tighten the clamps.

Yep, those "opportunities" were fun to deal with. In my case there were 12 inline fuses behind the panel. I had that "opportunity" cleaned up. To the original poster: the condition of your avionics and your finances will also dictate how much you need or can afford to do. I flew for 21 years with the same basic hardware (radios) and added things along the way. It wasn't until last December that I did the first major upgrade. And even with that, I missed the "opportunity" to have my left side panel redone when it looked like this: I could have saved some money by doing it all at once.

[Bob_Belville]

Yeah, for a little more $$$ it could have looked like this:

[chrisk]

Thanks for the information. The plane just recently came out of annual so I'm hoping there's not much that was missed. The mechanic I'm going to use for the pre-buy doesn't specialize in Mooney's but is familiar with them having worked on them before. Hopefully I won't have to spend much on maintenance after the purchase.

 

Out of curiosity, approximately how much would it cost to re-do the panel? Just make it a six pack and replace it with a nice looking metal, similar to what Bob_Belville posted on page 1 (minus the upgraded avionics).

 

There are a variety of check list for a pre-buy that are Mooney specific.  An often (and expensive) area missed by non-Mooney mechanics are dents on the nose truss.

[Marauder]

Yeah, for a little more $$$ it could have looked like this:

You're too funny Bob! But OH so right!

[Hector]

I hate to highjack the thread but looking at your panel upgrades reminded me of an issue you guys may have an answer for. During my annual about 3 months ago I installed a JPI 730 in the only space I had available in my panel (67C) all the way to the right side. I did not know at the time that the JPI 730 LCD screen has a relatively poor viewing angle and as a result I now have to lean over a bit to be able to see it. Looking at the pics you guys posted above reminded me that the F and J have the right hand side panel angled towards the pilot. Has anyone here done this mod to a C? If you have can you provide some details? I really hate having to lean over to see my engine monitor and I don't have a lot of other options for rearranging the panel (see picture below) so my choices are to do the mod discussed above, or manufacture an angled bracket for the engine monitor to tilt it towards the pilot side rather than tilting the entire panel. Any thoughts?

[N601RX]

Swap places with it and the tach or it and the MP/FP.

[Bob_Belville]

Hector, I do not know what the cost difference between the JPI 730 and 930 is but I went with the 930 to get rid of a great deal of panel clutter. In you case you could remove the 6 gauge cluster, the EGT gauge, the tach, the MP/FP gauge. You could then move the transponder, the autopilot and the NavCom2, which you would like and get the JPI over enough to be able to see it.