Small crack in the case -- ugh, looks like engine rebuild time.

[rahill]

During our latest oil change, we discovered a couple of small cracks between the #1 and #3 cylinders (IO-360A3B6D).  Ugh, as much as I knew an engine rebuild was in our future, I wanted a little more ability to plan for it!

 

So, with about 1500 hours on the engine, it looks like we're in for a premature rebuild.  Even though we're before TBO, I don't think it makes sense to do anything other than a complete overhaul.  

 

I guess what I'm looking for is suggestions, advice, condolences -- anything that'll help.  We're in Palo Alto, CA so local engine options would probably be best.

 

I guess it's good that (a) we found this one the ground and ( we're home rather than somewhere far away.  Eventually, when I get over the sticker shock, it'll be nice to have a new engine.  I'm not quite to that point yet though.

 

Rich 

 

N201CD 1977 M20J

KPAO, Palo Alto, CA

[N33GG]

^{Factory Reman - That would be my choice.}

^{I know the feeling, and it reminds me of a lot of pain I felt when I found a crack on one of the engines on my BE58TC.  That was really expensive.}

^{It really sucks, and you certainly have my condolences!}

^{Good luck and let us know how you proceed.}

[Jsavage3]

I had my OH completed about a year ago and now have 100 hrs on the field overhaul and the engine is running great...other than a sticky valve episode recently...for which I promptly took it to a reputable engine shop. 

 

However, were I to go thru this again, I'd go with a factory reman too. 

 

If you do choose the field OH route, recommend you go with new cylinders rather than re-working the ones you have.  New cylinders don't cost all that much more than re-worked ones.

 

Good luck!

[rahill]

I had my OH completed about a year ago and now have 100 hrs on the field overhaul and the engine is running great...other than a sticky valve episode recently...for which I promptly took it to a reputable engine shop. 

 

However, were I to go thru this again, I'd go with a factory reman too. 

 

If you do choose the field OH route, recommend you go with new cylinders rather than re-working the ones you have.  New cylinders don't cost all that much more than re-worked ones.

 

Good luck!

So my concern with a factory reman is the price and the core charge.  I've been told numerous tales about cores being unallowed due to cracks, age, etc.  Not sure how much of that is hearsay and how much is true (it's only been a few hours, I haven't had a chance to look into it yet) but it's definitely a concern.  

[KSMooniac]

At least get quotes for the factory option as they are motivated to get older, non roller cam engines out of the field. Ditto for the dual mag variant. Overhauling first-run cylinders on that engine can make financial sense because there is only new/Lycoming as the only option at twice the price of most other cylinders. Overhauling yours could save $5000 if they check out ok. Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 4

[mcpilot]

I had my OH completed about a year ago and now have 100 hrs on the field overhaul and the engine is running great...other than a sticky valve episode recently...for which I promptly took it to a reputable engine shop. 

 

However, were I to go thru this again, I'd go with a factory reman too. 

 

If you do choose the field OH route, recommend you go with new cylinders rather than re-working the ones you have.  New cylinders don't cost all that much more than re-worked ones.

 

Good luck!

Which cylinders did you get with your field overhaul? Tell us more about the sticky valve

[bnicolette]

Which cylinders did you get with your field overhaul? Tell us more about the sticky valve

 

Mike...........Jim (Jsavage3) was the one who made the original post about the sticky valve he had that led me to do some more digging into what I was noticing during the first start of the day.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9525-sticky-valve-lycoming-io-360-a3b6d/

 

Rahill...............so sorry to hear of your cracked case.  That's a real shame if everything else is performing as expected.  500 hours is 5 years to me.  I guess it wouldn't make much financial sense to just have the case replaced?  I had the following attachment done and the bill was under $5K and that included a reworked case.

[mcpilot]

Ok got it. That thread has so many pages I guess I lost track of the OP.

A factory reman/overhaul is probably the best bet. My mechanic just got a factory overhaul (O360) and the folks at lycoming intimated that the difference between the two most of the time is the zero time logbook...

[rahill]

Mike...........Jim (Jsavage3) was the one who made the original post about the sticky valve he had that led me to do some more digging into what I was noticing during the first start of the day.

 

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/9525-sticky-valve-lycoming-io-360-a3b6d/

 

Rahill...............so sorry to hear of your cracked case.  That's a real shame if everything else is performing as expected.  500 hours is 5 years to me.  I guess it wouldn't make much financial sense to just have the case replaced?  I had the following attachment done and the bill was under $5K and that included a reworked case.

Yeah, I suppose a teardown and repair is an option, I hadn't really considered that.  It does seem a bit of a financial gamble, since you don't really know what you're going to find (and have to fix/replace) until you open it up.  If the cam is toast for example (or even worn), which seems to be a feature, you'd be in for a rebuild after all.

[MB65E]

Just spent the last several months doing a Major Overhaul on our io360A1A. It was not so bad... Depends a lot on how recent your past 1500hr was. If it was done with in the last 10-15 years I'd do a field overhaul or have it overhauled at a shop. If its an older overhaul there is a ton of updating that needs to be done.Two piecs vs one piece Cam, Acc housing, rods could be corroded, Our case was shot too...Divco runs an excellent marketing department. $700 was the flat rate to repair the case IF it's reparable. Our A1A new to us overhauled case was $2800. I would do it over again the same way, but if I didn't have a Cylinder shop help out so much it would be much harder. Pacific Continental at Whiteman (KWHP). Runs an excellent shop and will treat you right. Lycon is great too, yes they do normal engines also. Excellent work as well with tons of experience! It's just hard to get Kenny on the phone some times.

[Jsavage3]

Which cylinders did you get with your field overhaul?

 

My engine had 1500 hours TTSN when my engine needed OH'd (corrosion on the tappet faces caused excessive cam lobe wear).  My A&P/IA had OH'd the engine of a Mooney friend of mine and he had good results, so I ended up having my IA do the work.  The case/crank/etc went off to a reputable engine shop and the cylinders all got shipped out to a cylinder shop (I do not recall which one).  My IA basically did the disassembly & reassembly/installation.  My cylinders were bored out 10 thousandths and new guts installed.

 

This engine now runs strong, burns a quart every 8-10 hours and I fly it night IMC and over water if need be...i.e. I trust it.

 

From a re-sale value point of view and potential warranty issues, well, that's why, IMHO, I'd go with a factory reman next time.

[jetdriven]

The thing about a field overhaul is once you open it, you own it. If the crank doesnt pass muster, that's 5-8K.  Then you really should use a new cam and lifters. If the cylinders are not verifiable first run, get new ones. Another 9K.  After you add it all up, you might be in it for the same as a factory OH, and you still dont have the roller cam or two separate magentos.

[M016576]

The thing about a field overhaul is once you open it, you own it. If the crank doesnt pass muster, that's 5-8K. Then you really should use a new cam and lifters. If the cylinders are not verifiable first run, get new ones. Another 9K. After you add it all up, you might be in it for the same as a factory OH, and you still dont have the roller cam or two separate magentos.

If the stars align, though, a shop or field overhaul can be significantly cheaper... Once all was said and done, the OH on mine was 17500 (reworked cylinders, they only had ~250 hrs on them, first run). That's without labor to hang the thing, though. After 100 hrs in the last 10 months, the overhauled motor and dual mag are still strong like bull.

I'm still wondering if their was just a bad batch of cams / tappets between 99-2002... Sure seems like a lot of our motors spit metal, and all of them were worked around then. Then again, that was 11-13 years ago- plenty of time for corrosion to set in...

[N601RX]

My IA and I overhauled mine. I ended up spending about $14K on it including removal and replacement. That included a centralub cam and a dynamically balanced crank. The cylinders were overhauled and I reused a few of the accessories as they had less than 30 hrs on them.

[Lood]

This is what happened to me last year - exactly. We also discovered two hairline cracks during an oil change - by accident. Seeing that my engine had only done 700hrs SMOH, I decided to replace the crank case with a new one. However, once my engine was opened, it turned out to be a can of worms and the engine shop reckoned it would not have run for more than two hours. Although still running fine during the last flight, it was busy seizing.

 

As mentioned above, once opened, it's yours. So, my overhaul ended up in building just about a brand new engine. I bought a new crank case, new crank shaft, new camshaft with all its goodies, etc, etc and I had all components replaced or overhauled as required to have the engine zero timed.

In the end, it cost me a fortune, but today, 130hrs later, I'm VERY happy and my engine is running like a Swiss clock.

Had I know beforehand, I would probably have gone the factory reman, but how could I have known? 

 

This is really a hard choice with many what if's, but as a direct result of my own experience, I would tend to lean towards the factory reman. That said, does your engine have 1500 hrs since new or SMOH and did you fly most of that 1500 hrs yourself? I have heard quite a few bad luck stories wrt factory remans as well. Good luck to you.

[bd32322]

This is what happened to me last year - exactly. We also discovered two hairline cracks during an oil change - by accident. Seeing that my engine had only done 700hrs SMOH, I decided to replace the crank case with a new one. However, once my engine was opened, it turned out to be a can of worms and the engine shop reckoned it would not have run for more than two hours. Although still running fine during the last flight, it was busy seizing.

 

As mentioned above, once opened, it's yours. So, my overhaul ended up in building just about a brand new engine. I bought a new crank case, new crank shaft, new camshaft with all its goodies, etc, etc and I had all components replaced or overhauled as required to have the engine zero timed.

In the end, it cost me a fortune, but today, 130hrs later, I'm VERY happy and my engine is running like a Swiss clock.

Had I know beforehand, I would probably have gone the factory reman, but how could I have known? 

 

This is really a hard choice with many what if's, but as a direct result of my own experience, I would tend to lean towards the factory reman. That said, does your engine have 1500 hrs since new or SMOH and did you fly most of that 1500 hrs yourself? I have heard quite a few bad luck stories wrt factory remans as well. Good luck to you.

 

Just curious - the last overhaul was a field or factory overhaul or new/reman? 700 SMOH for an engine at the point of failure seems very unlucky.. unless it wasn't overhauled right the first time

 

I hope that doesn't happen to me - just got my engine overhauled from zephyr and waiting to get it into the aircraft

[bumper]

Will Lyc take a cracked case in as a core?

 

When I was facing an early overhaul (1550 hours) on my IO-360 A1B6D, that "D" at the end was the prime mover to buy the 212 conversion with a new A1B6 engine. And when the next time comes, with a first run engine, I'll do a field overhaul rather than taking a crap-shoot of what Lyc puts together which may include cases that have been run out several times.

 

bumper

[rahill]

Haven't got an answer back from Lycoming about what they will and won't accept as a core, however since most of the other rebuild shops have said small hairline cracks are repairable (and even common), I sure hope so.  Their own documentation does say they won't accept a core that's over 36 years old, except for new or rebuilt exchange (both of which are more $$ than overhauls).  Of course ours is 36 years 8 months old...

[N201MKTurbo]

The thing about a field overhaul is once you open it, you own it. If the crank doesnt pass muster, that's 5-8K.  Then you really should use a new cam and lifters. If the cylinders are not verifiable first run, get new ones. Another 9K.  After you add it all up, you might be in it for the same as a factory OH, and you still dont have the roller cam or two separate magentos.

What do you mean, you own it? You can always put it back together and send it off....

[DaV8or]

Haven't got an answer back from Lycoming about what they will and won't accept as a core, however since most of the other rebuild shops have said small hairline cracks are repairable (and even common), I sure hope so.  Their own documentation does say they won't accept a core that's over 36 years old, except for new or rebuilt exchange (both of which are more $$ than overhauls).  Of course ours is 36 years 8 months old...

 

What's the TT on the engine? Has it been welded before? I know that in my case, if I should be so unfortunate as to be in your place, I would go with a factory reman. My plane has it's original engine in it from 1966. It has never been exchanged. It has been rebuilt three times before and welded once for a crack. If I still own the plane when it's time for a rebuild, or I'm faced with your situation, it goes. As far as I'm concerned, this is it's last run.

[rahill]

What's the TT on the engine? Has it been welded before? I know that in my case, if I should be so unfortunate as to be in your place, I would go with a factory reman. My plane has it's original engine in it from 1966. It has never been exchanged. It has been rebuilt three times before and welded once for a crack. If I still own the plane when it's time for a rebuild, or I'm faced with your situation, it goes. As far as I'm concerned, this is it's last run.

But if you turn in your engine as a core for a "zero time" Lycoming reman, doesn't it get repaired, reworkd, whatever and then repackaged and sold to become someone else's "zero time" engine?  Likewise, the engine you receive may have been in someone else's plane for a long time, but now it's time is magically starting over. Just because it's sold as zero time doesn't mean it's all new. 

 

We have about 3500 TT on the engine, rebuilt once (Mattituck, 1993 - don't know if it was welded or anything else).  The engine was delivered to Mooney in October, 1976.

[tony]

.....and you still dont have the roller cam ......

 

Byron I really don't think this is a benefit, actually I think it is a detriment.  I hope you never experience it,  but I really don't think you're going to like the failure mode. 

[jetdriven]

Will Lyc take a cracked case in as a core?

 

When I was facing an early overhaul (1550 hours) on my IO-360 A1B6D, that "D" at the end was the prime mover to buy the 212 conversion with a new A1B6 engine. And when the next time comes, with a first run engine, I'll do a field overhaul rather than taking a crap-shoot of what Lyc puts together which may include cases that have been run out several times.

 

bumper

Bumper, the roller cam case is not the same item as a non-roller case. Also, from before the roller cam era,  if the case bears the stamp of a case overhaul shop that welds cases, Lycoming will not reuse the case.   Worst case you get a crankcase that has been through 1 or 2 TBO cycles, they weren't introduced until 2005.

[jetdriven]

Will Lyc take a cracked case in as a core?

 

When I was facing an early overhaul (1550 hours) on my IO-360 A1B6D, that "D" at the end was the prime mover to buy the 212 conversion with a new A1B6 engine. And when the next time comes, with a first run engine, I'll do a field overhaul rather than taking a crap-shoot of what Lyc puts together which may include cases that have been run out several times.

 

bumper

 

Lycoming will take a "complete, operable, airworthy engine at time of removal" that hasnt been removed from service over a year ago. . Meaning, if it a complete, running engine, there is no core chargeback.  If you disassemble it, they wont take it.

[jetdriven]

Byron I really don't think this is a benefit, actually I think it is a detriment.  I hope you never experience it,  but I really don't think you're going to like the failure mode. 

 

I certainly wont, but I'll play the odds. I know a lot of people with flat tappet cam failures, but I am not aware of a single roller cam failure.  They have been in service 8 years now.