So, it's official...

[DaV8or]

...the money's in the bank and I'm looking for a M20E. This is my first plane and the purchase process is overwhelming at the moment. I have bought a house, a business and dozens of cars, trucks, motorcycles and boats, many of them older than this plane so I know old vehicles, but this seems like a whole other level of complexity. How does one approach the problem of buying a vintage peice of equipment with all manor of potential nightmares lurking just beneath the surface when they are scattered all over the country? I have joined MAPA and ordered Those Remarkable Mooneys, so hopefully soon I will be even more informed about the gotchas, but the questions are;

How do I keep from wasting a lot of money on airline tickets to see junk piles where the owner/broker just lied?

How realistic is it to expect that the plane I buy have all the ADs and Mooney specific issues complied with?

Is it realistic to think the owner would kick in for a part of the prepurchase/annual at a MSC?

Then there is finding a MSC to do the pre buy, title search, tax forms, transition training and ???

 

What I want:

An M20E best fits my mission profile and my budget. There seem to be quite a few on the market, so for now I'm not considering anything else. I have budgeted $75K (even less would be awsome!) for the finished plane and what it must have is:

Mid time or lower engine

Prop with no AD inspection

201 Windshield

Cowl Closure or better

Standard 6 pack panel

Garmin 430W or better primary

King or Garmin NAV/COM/GS secondary

Engine Analyzer like the JPI 700 or better, hopefully with Fuel Flow

Some type of auto pilot, even if just a wing leveler

I have preferences on other things too, but they are negotiable. I don't care much about the paint and interior or lots of other speed mods. The panel is more important to me. I know that I will not find a plane with all of my must haves, so I plan on doing work on the plane to get it there as soon as I buy it. I'm factoring this work into the $75k. How realistic do you think this is?

Thanks for the help.

[mooneygirl]

I believe I felt much the way you do when I began my search for a Mooney in 2003.  I ended up with a 65 E model.  I suppose that perserverence is the key. The market is certainly in your favor, but when you are dealing with a private seller, I do believe it feels like they are parting with a "member of the family".  If you are not top-notch Mooney Savvy, then you need a pre-buy.  With Oakland has your home base, of course you have LASAR nearly in your back yard. But most likely you will find your new baby in some other part of the country, and will need to rely on one of our great Mooney Service Centers [MSCs] or recommendations from the MAPA forum or this board.

While the process is a bit more complicated than buying a car, it isn't brain surgery.  You will also find that everyone has an opinion, but the one that matters the most is yours.  I, too, wasn't too worried about paint.  I was concerned with the integrity of the engine.  Even the avionics were a bit secondary to the engine for me.  Everyone is different.

The MAPA log is a good place to start.  LASAR also sells planes on consignment.  Many congratulations, and I hope you will be doing the Happy Mooney Dance very soon.  If you have questions please ask!

All the best

 

jolie

[KSMooniac]

You can always ask the seller or broker for lots of detailed pictures and scans of the log books as a first step in screening.  I would want to see steady use of the plane, and consistant maintenance in the logs.  If you see 3 or 4 years of logbook entries of only "performed annual inspection per...." with no additional indications of other maintenance on a 40 year old plane, then I would be quite suspicious.  If the logs aren't scanned, then the seller should be willing to do that in this market...anything to help move a plane.  If they won't, then that should raise a flag IMO.  Getting a list of AD and SB compliance should be part of that deal too, and yes, you should expect everything to be kosher for the budget you have in mind.  A $20k basketcase...notsomuch.  Generally it is up to the buyer to pay for a pre-purchase inspection.  If the plane is out-of-annual or nearly so, then you might be able to negotiate a split cost with the seller.  Usually the seller would have to correct airworthiness squawks uncovered in the process, but that needs to be negotiated in advance and written into the purchase agreement.

If you find a candidate plane away from home and it passes your initial screening, then you can ask someone from here (or AOPA board) if they would be willing to put eyes on it and see if it meets your expectations.  Then you can move forward with a plane ticket and pre-buy inspection.  Some folks have purchased planes sight-unseen after a successful pre-buy, but I wouldn't want to do that, especially the first time!

Word-of-mouth might be the best way to find the right plane too, so your post is a great place to start.  Ken Reed just posted a link for a friend's '66 E that looks like a nice plane to me, and I don't think it is advertised on the major sites right now.  I found my J via word-of-mouth locally and got a jump on the process before it was advertised.

Good luck!

[MooneyMitch]

Quote: mooneygirl

I believe I felt much the way you do when I began my search for a Mooney in 2003.  I ended up with a 65 E model.  I suppose that perserverence is the key. The market is certainly in your favor, but when you are dealing with a private seller, I do believe it feels like they are parting with a "member of the family".  If you are not top-notch Mooney Savvy, then you need a pre-buy.  With Oakland has your home base, of course you have LASAR nearly in your back yard. But most likely you will find your new baby in some other part of the country, and will need to rely on one of our great Mooney Service Centers [MSCs] or recommendations from the MAPA forum or this board.

While the process is a bit more complicated than buying a car, it isn't brain surgery.  You will also find that everyone has an opinion, but the one that matters the most is yours.  I, too, wasn't too worried about paint.  I was concerned with the integrity of the engine.  Even the avionics were a bit secondary to the engine for me.  Everyone is different.

The MAPA log is a good place to start.  LASAR also sells planes on consignment.  Many congratulations, and I hope you will be doing the Happy Mooney Dance very soon.  If you have questions please ask!

All the best

 

jolie

[Buster1]

DaV8or,

Just that you've thought of all those things puts you well ahead of the average buyer IMHO.  I too have had the same debates and thoughts as we get ready to make an offer in a few short months (I hope).

My plan in reference to your questions:

1. I plan on seeing the bird first hand...a must for me.  To keep from wasting money on plane tix, I plan on focusing closer to home, or going to a MSC that has more than one bird "on the lot" to look at.  For instance, I hope to get up to Willmar at one point and go see all their 231s that I am interested in.  A single seller, far off and away, will probably be passed by for me.

2.  I think it's reasonable to have all the AD's complied with, if not, they will be corrected at pre buy with some form of agreement (in writing) with me and the seller.

3.  I plan on paying 100% of the pre buy cost wherever that ends up being, and he will pay to fix any airworthiness items (again agreed in the written agreement, you can find examples on AOPA)

4.  Most MSCs and some banks will do all the title searches and stuff for you and are good at it too.

My $0.02.  Good luck.

[Earl]

Quote: KSMooniac

 

If you find a candidate plane away from home and it passes your initial screening, then you can ask someone from here (or AOPA board) if they would be willing to put eyes on it and see if it meets your expectations.  Then you can move forward with a plane ticket and pre-buy inspection.  Some folks have purchased planes sight-unseen after a successful pre-buy, but I wouldn't want to do that, especially the first time

[DaV8or]

Quote: KSMooniac

 Ken Reed just posted a link for a friend's '66 E that looks like a nice plane to me, and I don't think it is advertised on the major sites right now.  I found my J via word-of-mouth locally and got a jump on the process before it was advertised.

Good luck!

[DaV8or]

Quote: ehscott

But after more experience in the ownership world I would probably not do it this way again.

[piperpainter]

Remember you can always add things to your airplane... Ie the 201 window isn't all that common but I installed mine and it took me about a week with help of course. And i love it!  Plus you have LASAR just up the road from you!

[DaV8or]

Quote: piperpainter

Remember you can always add things to your airplane... Ie the 201 window isn't all that common but I installed mine and it took me about a week with help of course. And i love it!  Plus you have LASAR just up the road from you!

[Earl]

Quote: DaV8or

What would you do now?

[RJBrown]

When I sold my Rocket Top Gun in Stockton did the pre buy. I was impressed with the organization.

When I bought the MSE a year ago I dealt with First Pryority Bank of Pryor Oklahoma. The loan approval was quick and painless. They have a sales contract form that I used. I had a contract on a TLS that ended up un airworthy in a lot of ways. When the seller would not stand behind the plane and backed out of the deal the contract we used required him to cover the cost of prebuy. It cost me a trip to Dallas to inspect the plane but not a dime on the failed prebuy.

When I chose the MSE I ended up not needing the financing but still used Pryority to escrow the deal. They treated me so well that I left the excess funds there for an engine reserve fund. Robert Guderian is who helped me.

[DaV8or]

Quote: ehscott

I would go see and fly the airplane first and then arrange for the pre-buy inspection.

[DaV8or]

Quote: RJBrown

When I sold my Rocket Top Gun in Stockton did the pre buy. I was impressed with the organization.

When I bought the MSE a year ago I dealt with First Pryority Bank of Pryor Oklahoma. The loan approval was quick and painless. They have a sales contract form that I used. I had a contract on a TLS that ended up un airworthy in a lot of ways. When the seller would not stand behind the plane and backed out of the deal the contract we used required him to cover the cost of prebuy. It cost me a trip to Dallas to inspect the plane but not a dime on the failed prebuy.

When I chose the MSE I ended up not needing the financing but still used Pryority to escrow the deal. They treated me so well that I left the excess funds there for an engine reserve fund. Robert Guderian is who helped me.

[KLRDMD]

Quote: DaV8or

[DaV8or]

Quote: KLRDMD

If you would like any specific pictures of Jeff's airplane, just let me know. I can get them next week. (I have no financial interest in the sale, as a disclaimer)

[RJBrown]

The point of choosing a sales contract can be important. The form you use can save you from a hassle or worse. This is the form I chose. http://www.1st-of-pryor.com/aircraft_purchase.htm

 When I purchased my first plane it was treated like a car purchase. I found it in the local paper called the owner and went to see it. We flew it together from his airport home to APA. After Arapahoe Aero looked it over I bought it. We were both lucky. Both the seller and I were aboveboard and honest. He sold a plane I bought my first plane, it was a great day!

 When I sold the plane I sold it through a broker and to a lawyer. This was not his first plane and I had representation. Once again the deal went smoothly as both parties were honest with each other. Difference was the deal was structured in a more complete manner. We were both protected by a contract.

 I learned a lot between my purchase and sale of N231NH. What I learned included the careful steps and thorough documentation used in my attempt to buy N808MS. Without the protection of a properly executed contract I could have lost a lot more than the cost of a trip to Dallas.

 My advise is to use a contract and don't be as trusting and naive as I was the first time around. Buying a plane is different than buying a car. The biggest difference is that there is not a title and lien procedure to protect the buyer. It is much safer to buy a car than a plane. Use a contract, do a title search, use an escrow agent and be careful.

Skipping a pre buy can cost you some surprises. Skipping this stuff can cost you the plane.