GTN 650 or 750?

[Bob_Belville]

Tom, I'm no expert but I think you're going to need an autopilot with "HDG" heading capability. My Aspen takes the flight plan info from the 750 and feeds steering (GPSS) info to the STEC 50 which has to be in HDG mode.

[TWinter]

Tom -- what AP do you actually have? It sounds like they were adding only the STEC-30 altitude hold feature. They should have known what it was going to be connected to. Something doesn't sound right. If you want, I can give you a call and we can talk through what you have. PM with your number.

Marauder, Thanks..got the PM and number.

 

Bob, Thanks as well.

 

Here is what the deal was or is:  My shop had another Mooney in a few months ago and was thinking mine had the same auto-pilot. I do not have any AP other than the wing leveler system. That was the problem. When I called him this week he was thinking of Mooney #1 when he quoted, not mine. He quoted the GPSS based on the other aircraft, honest mistake. He was placing the order this morning and called to double check everything so he would have what he needed. I told him I had just a wing leveler.  He said "Oh Sh**, I thought you had the XYZ A/P system. I said nope, just wing leveler. In his defense, it was just an honest mistake. He said it would take much more to add the GPSS. I told him I would post on the forum and see if there something he and I missed. I also called S-Tec and spoke w. tech support (nice guys). Looks like I would need STec part ####601 to add GPSS  with the STec 30 ALT Hold unit for full GPSS w/ alt. It lists for an additional 9K on top of the original quote for the S-Tec30.  Too much $green$ for me. Thanks again for quick replies, Tom N7741M

 

Bottom line.. No GPSS, but adding the STec 30 Alt Hold, the GTN 750 (yes the 750, not 650) and the annual. Oh well, all in all still gonna be a big change and very excited about the upgrades.   

[Marauder]

Tom -- good luck moving forward. I hope you got a quote, not an estimate from these guys. Otherwise you may find other "surprises". I am surprised that a quality shop would make assumptions about what was in an airplane. None of the planes we own have ever stayed in a static state. Things get added and removed over the years. When I went through this process I was very adamant about making sure I provided full disclosure on what my plane had and what they were interfacing with. Even with that, there were "surprises" but nothing that prevented them from honoring the original quote. What I got was "for $X you can also add this". It was additional capability that went beyond what I agreed to have them install.

 

Examples were the flight director, a two way throw-over capability of the Aspens during reversion (unpublished approved Aspen mod) and having them move stuff that I wanted moved after they began the work.

[TWinter]

Tom -- good luck moving forward. I hope you got a quote, not an estimate from these guys. Otherwise you may find other "surprises". I am surprised that a quality shop would make assumptions about what was in an airplane. None of the planes we own have ever stayed in a static state. Things get added and removed over the years. When I went through this process I was very adamant about making sure I provided full disclosure on what my plane had and what they were interfacing with. Even with that, there were "surprises" but nothing that prevented them from honoring the original quote. What I got was "for $X you can also add this". It was additional capability that went beyond what I agreed to have them install.

 

Examples were the flight director, a two way throw-over capability of the Aspens during reversion (unpublished approved Aspen mod) and having them move stuff that I wanted moved after they began the work

Dyersburg Avionics does my work. They installed the JPI830, Strobes, various other things at the start of this year and kept up with ADs and annuals. They have also had been my shop for my prior Cherokee. I'll drop you a call in a short while. I'm finishing up on some things at work, but I'll give you the scoop later. I had a written quote from back in first of the year, but it did not have the auto-pilot and the quote was on the GTN650..It's probably my fault the shop quotes as I have changed my mind several times..Heck, just look how many times I've changed on this thread..LOL.  It's all good though. I'll touch base later. Thanks   TW

[Marauder]

Dyersburg Avionics does my work. They installed the JPI830, Strobes, various other things at the start of this year and kept up with ADs and annuals. They have also had been my shop for my prior Cherokee. I'll drop you a call in a short while. I'm finishing up on some things at work, but I'll give you the scoop later. I had a written quote from back in first of the year, but it did not have the auto-pilot and the quote was on the GTN650..It's probably my fault the shop quotes as I have changed my mind several times..Heck, just look how many times I've changed on this thread..LOL.  It's all good though. I'll touch base later. Thanks   TW

 

Sorry I missed your call. Will be available this afternoon. I sent you a PM with my cell number as well. It is good to hear that you have worked with these guys before. Many of these shops have a pretty loose quoting process. I got into a pretty ugly issue with a shop that quoted me a job and then tried to change it after the work started. As you probably know, there is a legal difference between a quote and an estimate. A quote is binding and an estimate is a guess. That what was that threw up the red flag for me with your situation. Providing an quote or an estimate without really understanding what they were pricing could lead to headaches later.

 

Give me a call and I can go through what you are dealing with.

[jlunseth]

AP's that fly to GPS data (i.e. with a GPSS or built in like the 225)are pretty cool. I have a KFC 200 with Alt. hold only, but it is still an excellent instrument. A typical flight for me would be to get a Departure out of KFCM. I put the departure into the GPS. On takeoff I will typically get vectored for awhile at, say, 3000. So I get to that altitude and then leave the GPSS in HDG mode. The bug flies the plane wherever ATC wants. At some point they will give me a "direct to" a waypoint to join the departure, I scroll through the flight plan, highlight the waypoint, hit the "D" button and put the GPSS in GPS mode. The plane will now fly to the waypoint and then fly the rest of the route to my airport of intended landing, however many turns there are. It is up to me to set a pitch and power for the ascent to, say, FL200, then push Alt Hold and the plane belongs to the AP. It will completely fly any instrument approach, including coupling to a GS. My GPSS is an Icarus which has altitude alerts, so if I am going to FL200 I put that in the GPSS as the target altitude and it reminds me when I am approaching, so even if I am busy with other stuff I know to level off. If for some reason the plane departs assigned altitude, the Icarus lets me know immediately.

I have to hand fly intentionally every now and then to stay in practice.

[TWinter]

Well, week one down..The 750 install will be finished by Saturday afternoon. The shop has been busy getting other annuals and misc repairs done on a few guys plane going to Osh. My annual is also due now so they will start the annual Monday after buttoning-up the 750.

 

The S-Tec Alt is ordered and they will work on that the middle of next month after Osh, this will also give me a few more weeks to get my pennies rolled. We went back and forth over the GDL88. The coverage in my little part of the world is still really hit and miss. I'm holding off on the GDL88 and going to use the Zaon 1090 module w/ my current XRX and just keep my XM weather. After coverage fills in I swap to the GDL88.  I'll give a Pirep on the Zaon 1090 when I get it back. As it stands I'll have the Garmin 750 and 696 next to it. Looking forward to getting it back.  

 

Ironic that it seems like some of the nicest days to fly are the days the planes in the shop. Been a great week here in TN to fly..go figure.

[Piloto]

Another option is to display traffic on your GTN-750 from the Traffic Watch. I have mine connected to my 530 but it also works with the GTN-750.

 

José

[TWinter]

Another option is to display traffic on your GTN-750 from the Traffic Watch. I have mine connected to my 530 but it also works with the GTN-750.

 

José

 

Another option is to display traffic on your GTN-750 from the Traffic Watch. I have mine connected to my 530 but it also works with the GTN-750.

 

José

Jose',

 

We are on the same page..Since I already have the Zaon set up to display on the 696 and I already have the weather/xm subscription on the 696 I will primarily use it for those three applications. Zaon has designed a new plug in play package that will show aircraft transponder traffic (as done prior), but also lets the 1090 work off the same platform at the same time picking up and displaying ADS-B all on the same traffic page. The newest Garmin software 696 update released in May 2013 will allow for a full traffic page site picture like Jose's pic depicts. So I should get all traffic and weather on the 696. The downside is Zaon 1090 does not pick-up free govt weather (a 1090 downfall), but from what I understand the XM weather is updated just a tad quicker than the free government weather at this point, plus my coverage area is weak right now for GDL. I'll use the 750 for radio, transponder, flight plans and general navigation etc. The 696 placed next to it will display primarily weather and all traffic.

 

In my opinion right now relying just on GDLs is not full protection (in my area anyway). Not until 2020 when all aircraft are required. The other day while checking progress my shop's owner did bring up a good point. We will be curious to see how much resistance there will be in GA when 2020 gets closer requiring everyone to be ADS-B. The ADS-B is currently based off of your transponder output coding (if I understand correctly?). The AP, avionics shop owner and I started talking about how many "fair weather" plane owners there are who have a plane in the hanger and fly just once in a while. You know the one in the end of the T-Hangers with bird poop all over it. How are they going to respond when they learn they HAVE to replace the old transponder with a new one capable of ADS-B ($3000-$3500+/-). Many of these folks have had these planes for decades and budget just enough  for monthly hanger fees and to take it for annual. Maybe flown two or three times a year. There are several planes on my field that I know have not been moved since it's last annual. Might be lots of planes for sale in 2019. I predict there will be some sort of cheaper adaptable FAA approved add-on unit that will work in conjuction with old transponders. No worries though. I know my plane and my brother/sister Mooniacs will be up to date and flying safe .  Head on a swivel. Just my thoughts.

[Piloto]

Yes coverage is an important issue. The GDL-88 or GDL-39 would not help me since there is no ADS-B coverage across the Bahamas and the Caribbean where I fly to. In Puerto Rico I get weather thru my smartphone and traffic with the Traffic Watch. At TJIG I can get traffic while in the hangar. There is no XM\WX coverage either. I have the WX-10 Stormscope that works pretty well along the TJIG-KFXE route. BTW fuel at TJIG is $9/gal. It is rare to see piston planes at the Customs building like in the old days.

 

BTW you do not need to be ADS-B equipped by 2020 unless you fly above 10,000 feet and into Class B or C airspace. By 2020 AVGAS will be so expensive that I do not think I will be buying fuel at a Class B or C airport. The ruling does not apply outside the US. 

 

José

[TWinter]

Yes coverage is an important issue. The GDL-88 or GDL-39 would not help me since there is no ADS-B coverage across the Bahamas and the Caribbean where I fly to. In Puerto Rico I get weather thru my smartphone and traffic with the Traffic Watch. At TJIG I can get traffic while in the hangar. There is no XM\WX coverage either. I have the WX-10 Stormscope that works pretty well along the TJIG-KFXE route. BTW fuel at TJIG is $9/gal. It is rare to see piston planes at the Customs building like in the old days.

 

BTW you do not need to be ADS-B equipped by 2020 unless you fly above 10,000 feet and into Class B or C airspace. By 2020 AVGAS will be so expensive that I do not think I will be buying fuel at a Class B or C airport. The ruling does not apply outside the US. 

 

José

All good points..Yikes!!!  $9/gal. I think I would have to hang-up the headset.

[Marauder]

Another option is to display traffic on your GTN-750 from the Traffic Watch. I have mine connected to my 530 but it also works with the GTN-750. José Another option is to display traffic on your GTN-750 from the Traffic Watch. I have mine connected to my 530 but it also works with the GTN-750. José Jose', We are on the same page..Since I already have the Zaon set up to display on the 696 and I already have the weather/xm subscription on the 696 I will primarily use it for those three applications. Zaon has designed a new plug in play package that will show aircraft transponder traffic (as done prior), but also lets the 1090 work off the same platform at the same time picking up and displaying ADS-B all on the same traffic page. The newest Garmin software 696 update released in May 2013 will allow for a full traffic page site picture like Jose's pic depicts. So I should get all traffic and weather on the 696. The downside is Zaon 1090 does not pick-up free govt weather (a 1090 downfall), but from what I understand the XM weather is updated just a tad quicker than the free government weather at this point, plus my coverage area is weak right now for GDL. I'll use the 750 for radio, transponder, flight plans and general navigation etc. The 696 placed next to it will display primarily weather and all traffic. In my opinion right now relying just on GDLs is not full protection (in my area anyway). Not until 2020 when all aircraft are required. The other day while checking progress my shop's owner did bring up a good point. We will be curious to see how much resistance there will be in GA when 2020 gets closer requiring everyone to be ADS-B. The ADS-B is currently based off of your transponder output coding (if I understand correctly?). The AP, avionics shop owner and I started talking about how many "fair weather" plane owners there are who have a plane in the hanger and fly just once in a while. You know the one in the end of the T-Hangers with bird poop all over it. How are they going to respond when they learn they HAVE to replace the old transponder with a new one capable of ADS-B ($3000-$3500+/-). Many of these folks have had these planes for decades and budget just enough for monthly hanger fees and to take it for annual. Maybe flown two or three times a year. There are several planes on my field that I know have not been moved since it's last annual. Might be lots of planes for sale in 2019. I predict there will be some sort of cheaper adaptable FAA approved add-on unit that will work in conjuction with old transponders. No worries though. I know my plane and my brother/sister Mooniacs will be up to date and flying safe . Head on a swivel. Just my thoughts.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the 2020 mandate requires an "out" only. It does not mean everyone will pay to have the "in" capabilities. So there will still be plenty of planes flying around transmitting out but not getting in information, those without transponders and those who have taken advantage of the mandate through inflight uploads. I think that if someone wants full awareness before 2020, an investment in TAS is required and even with that you won't get everything.

[TWinter]

My portable ADS-B "in" box was only $350. Talk about value!

I think that the great falacy of the new airspace system, however, is that the vast majority of the GA fleet will choose not to meet the 2020 ADS-B out "mandate". Most of them don't fly over 10,000 feet or in/over Class B or C airspace anyway, so more reliable traffic information would be their only incentive.

I probably will comply, but only because the price of "out" equipment is coming down and I would hate to have to give up the option of occasionally flying high. Most of my flying is between 7,000 and 10,000 feet, though.

Jim

I did forget about the 10K stipulation, I am well below that. As far as the B/C airspace, there is more of a chance I would transit that airspace once in a while. I really think it will be a "wait and see" situation.

[Oscar Avalle]

I use my gtn 750 for navigation and primary com. The 430 to display storm scope information and the 795 for traffic and for the approach charts. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[TWinter]

Finally closure to this install/upgrade..

 

Today I finally got a chance to really try the new GTN750 along with the STec Alt Hold I recently had installed. I really had no idea what a difference it would make having the Stec-Alt Hold. The overall flight ( 4 hrs-not terribly far) was much less tiring than holding altitude and flying by hand. Money well spent. No GPSS at this time, but the factory wing leveler worked perfectly with the alt hold. They worked in great harmony. Just turn the plane, aim your heading. It steered dead on. I also had a manual vacuum switch (from Brittian) installed to activate/deactivate the wing leveler without having to use the button-rubberband method. I nice addition, no more fighting a rubberband.

 

Pirep on the 750 is great. I am just using basic funtions right now, but so far it does everything as advertised. Still using the 696 beside the 750 for traffic & weather, I'm more comfortable w/ my 696 while learning the curve of the 750 so I'll still rely heavily on my 696 for a while longer. No GDL yet. Just Zaon for now.

 

Changed landing light to LED, belly to LED and rear recognition to same.  All of the upgrades this year pretty well shot the 2013 airplane/toy budget...LOL

Time to put some XC miles on. All that's left to do is fly and do regular oil changes. I know we are never done, but I am as close as I need to be for quite sometime.

 

No more excuses for putting off IFR. The plane is ready, I guess at this point I am as well. I plan to start IFR training in January..