4 bounced landings in a row

[jlunseth]

I watched the video that Antares posted and although I had seen it before I learned something from it this time.  The aircraft hits flat, or perhaps slightly nose down, but then wheelbarrows down the runway.  The nose gear never leaves the runway, but the mains do, bouncing higher and higher until the prop strike.  The nose gear was allowed to act as a lever fulcrum.  Classic porpoise.  The pilot does nothing to raise the nose, which was the mistake.  The reason that accident happened is not the bounce, that would have been correctable, it is that the pilot allowed the nose wheel down with or slightly before the mains, and after the first bounce failed to correct for it.

[craigsteffen]

Where did you get the impression that you should cross the numbers at 80MPH?  

 

Let's say your a 180lbs and you a tad under half tanks (190lbs). In my airplane (just did a new W&B and we're at 1051lbs useful) that would put the aircrafts weight ~ 2070lbs.  At that weight with full flaps and gear down your stall speed is ~54 MPH.  If you're over the numbers at a 1.5 x Vso than a bounce is far more likely than a landing.  Someone gave you a some bum advice... 80 mph would work out OK at gross, but is still a tad fast IMO over the numbers.

 

I've gotten those numbers from every Mooney instructor I've had teach me on the clock and several who were just writing on the MAPA list.  Trim for 90 mph during descent from pattern, 80 mph over the airport boundary.  The rest is margin in case of gusts; bleed it off during the flare. 

 

Craig Steffen

(not a flight instructor; that's how I was told to do it and taught to do it and that's how I try to do it in my M-20F.)

[Mooneymite]

I've gotten those numbers from every Mooney instructor I've had

 

Heresy!!!  You are cheating death.

 

On any given approach, the proper "number" is attained through consultation with a ouija board.       

 

Put another way:  if you consult 10 Mooney instructors, you will get 15-20 highly accurate numbers.

[John Pleisse]

Hey Spam..... keep your eyes on the opposite threshold until the wheels churp. You're probably looking over the cowling. Also, make sure your pattern is buttoned down real good. Speeds, gear down abeam, not too wide, 30 bank. A good landing starts on the 45.

[Oscar Avalle]

You might want to pick up Donald Kaye's excellent video on landing techniques.  In the video he talks about bouncing and the hazards of coming in too fast.  He comes across the numbers at 70 knots.  He did say that if given a choice when he bounced, he'd rather be too fast than too slow.  If too fast, you have airspeed to salvage the landing.

 

What's also key from his video is that if you don't hear the stall warning, you're too fast.

 

Where can you get the video...

[Shadrach]

I've gotten those numbers from every Mooney instructor I've had teach me on the clock and several who were just writing on the MAPA list. Trim for 90 mph during descent from pattern, 80 mph over the airport boundary. The rest is margin in case of gusts; bleed it off during the flare.

Craig Steffen

(not a flight instructor; that's how I was told to do it and taught to do it and that's how I try to do it in my M-20F.)

Well then, it must be a good idea. Stall speeds for a given weight are not terribly difficult to calculate. Crossing the threshold at anything more than 1.3 X stall in what ever configuration you're flying the approach is poor technique IMHO. But then, I'm far from an instructor, so by all means shoot for 80mph... ;-)

[Hank]

Where can you get the video...

Don's video is available here:

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

I fly downwind and base at 90 mph, roll level on final at 85, and slow down to 70-75 on short final depending on weight. The stall horn sounds on every landing before the wheels touch. If I can figure out how to post an Apple video from my Droid tablet that won't play the stinking video, I have a nice 1-minute video on final to touchdown.

[WardHolbrook]

Well then, it must be a good idea. Stall speeds for a given weight are not terribly difficult to calculate. Crossing the threshold at anything more than 1.3 X stall in what ever configuration your flying the approach is poor technique IMHO. But then, I'm far from an instructor, so by all means shoot for 80mph... ;-)

I am a CFI and the #1 most common cause of muffed landings is too much airspeed crossing the threshhold. It's all about airspeed control. If you're coming in a bit on the fast side and carrying some power to boot, you'll have plenty of opportunity to muff up your landing while you're floating down the runway in ground effect. You can also throw the landing distances in the POH out the window. As you have suggested, make sure you're using the proper approach speed. Some guys add a lot of cushions... 2 or 3 knots for this, a couple of knots for that, and a few for the wife and kids oh and don't forget a little something for grandma. They add up quickly and they're not necessary unless you're dealing with a STRONG direct crosswind. 100 IAS works well in the pattern but you're going to want to back it off to 1.3 times the stall speed for the landing configuration you're using as you're crossing the threshold. (I am NOT a fan of partial/no flap landings.) That speed will be a function of weight, in other words, the appropriate threshold speed landing with a pilot 3 passengers and a couple hours of fuel won't be the same as when you're in the airplane by yourself and only have 10 gallons of fuel. This is where an Angle of Attack indicator really comes in handy - it makes flying at 1.3 Vstall silly simple regardless of your weight and configuration. 

[SpamPilot]

I figured I would update this thread for the benefit of any new vintage Mooney drivers.  Now three years and 450 hours later, I can confirm that the bounced landings were all about airspeed.  Once I became comfortable targeting less than 80 MPH over the numbers, and slower for less weight, landings became uneventful.

Note that the AIM talks about Vref (approach speed, 50 feet above landing) typically being 1.3 * Vs0 (Ward also mentions this).  In my aircraft, that would be 83 MPH at max gross.  This is simply too fast, especially so when light, and pretty much guarantees one or two bounces of the nose wheel, if not actual porpoising.  80 MPH, which is what the owner's manual recommends, is OK when near max gross, but still a little fast with one passenger and partial fuel, and too fast when I'm flying solo.  I have learned to target 1.2 * Vs0 (77 MPH) over the numbers with one passenger partial fuel, and 75 MPH when solo.  This results in no bounce, or a minor bounce if I plop it.  I have worked my way down to 2400' airstrips without drama, and can get on the tarmac and stopped within 1200' when I am on my game.  A couple MPH less would be even better, though I am not yet skilled enough to consistently bring the aircraft in over the numbers on the stall horn.

With the slower speed over the numbers, I do plop it more often, since speed decays more rapidly in the flare.  I'm learning to better match the flare to height over the runway, or to add a breath of throttle when the stall horn comes on to avoid the plop, at the expense of using a bit more runway.

Recency of slow flight practice does help, but I think transition training would have made a huge difference, both for this issue as well as other aircraft management issues that I've had to learn through trial and error.  I can say, though, without reservation, that I've gotten more out of the aircraft than I had hoped for, and it was a great purchase decision for my mission.

Edited January 17, 2016 by SpamPilot

[midlifeflyer]

2 hours ago, SpamPilot said:

Note that the AIM talks about Vref (approach speed, 50 feet above landing) typically being 1.3 * Vs0 (Ward also mentions this).  In my aircraft, that would be 83 MPH at max gross. 

Are you sure?  You might be right but the reason I ask is many people (all aircraft types)  make the mistake of thinking this is based on IAS and wind up with too high a number. It's not. It's based on CAS.  IOW, the calculation is 1.3 X Vso CAS. They you use the conversion table to convert the result to IAS.

And, even at IAS... looking at an old M20C manual I have hanging around, it shows full flap (i.e., the landing configration)  stall speed of 57 mph. That gives me a 1.3 Vso of 74, not 83, even without converting.

[Hank]

Look in your Owners Manual. Mine is 57 MPH Full Flaps or 64 MPH Takeoff Flaps. Multiply by 1.3 gives 74 and 83 MPH. Then takeoff another 5 MPH for every 300 lbs below gross. That's my speed on short final. When I have the runway made, throttle to idle, flare and set it down just after the stall horn sounds. Can't give you any speeds there, my eyes are down the runway. 

This worked well for 7 years at my obstructed 3000' home field, and the nearby 2000' grass strip (I just didn't go there heavy).

Edited January 17, 2016 by Hank

[gsengle]

Besides coming in fast only equals bouncing a nose wheel if you can't use a gentle touch to hold steady bleeding off speed in any float and then gradually increasing the flare as you settle...

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[Bob_Belville]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

Look in your Owners Manual. Mine is 57 MPH Full Flaps or 64 MPH Takeoff Flaps. Multiply by 1.3 gives 74 and 83 MPH. Then takeoff another 5 MPH for every 300 lbs below gross. That's my speed on short final. When I have the runway made, throttle to idle, flare and set it down just after the stall horn sounds. Can't give you any speeds there, my eyes are down the runway. 

This worked well for 7 years at my obstructed 3000' home field, and the nearby 2000' grass strip (I just didn't go there heavy).

That sounds fine though 1.2 x Vso (adjusted for weight) on short final is SOP for short field landing, I think. Gusting winds require a safety margin. 

I have 65 (kts) set as my Aspen ref speed and target that for normal landing. Vso @ MGW is 50. (CAS is a kt or 2 different from IAS but I ain't that precise). I never heard the stall warning horn go off in flare! 

 

[mike20papa]

Mr Spam Pilot..in your "new to U" mooney..have no fear.. it's just a matter of the "picture" in the flare.  Happens to us all if we're honest, just practice + currency=no bounce.  Practice putting the horizon just below the glare shield and add a bit of power if you think the flare is dropping to quickly.  I was signed off in my A model by a guy who worked for Mooney back in the 80's as a sales manager, lots & lots of hours and when he began landing the mooney I never thought the picture out the window would be so much with the horizon below the glare shield.  He never blinked at the less than smoothie landings..reminding me off the stout as hell MAIN gear, The sink rate will be high and the landings "firm" but better than a cursed "3 pointer" with a bounce&prop strike to boot. 

[tony]

Just thinking out loud ....   If you have a leak in your pitot system, you'll be flying faster than you think.  Regardless, hold her a few inches (not nine)  off the ground and wait for her to stop flying.

Edited January 17, 2016 by tony

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

Are you sure?  You might be right but the reason I ask is many people (all aircraft types)  make the mistake of thinking this is based on IAS and wind up with too high a number. It's not. It's based on CAS.  IOW, the calculation is 1.3 X Vso CAS. They you use the conversion table to convert the result to IAS.

And, even at IAS... looking at an old M20C manual I have hanging around, it shows full flap (i.e., the landing configration)  stall speed of 57 mph. That gives me a 1.3 Vso of 74, not 83, even without converting.

True that it is based on CAS, but at approach speed I think the difference is insignificant (1-3kts). Especially if the aircraft is power off by short final.

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

That sounds fine though 1.2 x Vso (adjusted for weight) on short final is SOP for short field landing, I think. Gusting winds require a safety margin. 

I have 65 (kts) set as my Aspen ref speed and target that for normal landing. Vso @ MGW is 50. (CAS is a kt or 2 different from IAS but I ain't that precise). I never heard the stall warning horn go off in flare! 

 

I shoot for ~ 1.2Vso for standard OPs and 1.1Vso for short field.

[FlyDave]

3 hours ago, gsengle said:

Besides coming in fast only equals bouncing a nose wheel if you can't use a gentle touch to hold steady bleeding off speed in any float and then gradually increasing the flare as you settle...

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For me, after good airspeed control and flying by the numbers, holding a steady pitch attitude in the flare ensures a good landing. In fact, if I may say so, since I learned this I'm impressed myself many times with my landings .

[gsengle]

Yes but what if you have wind shear? Gusting? We do need to know how to land fast, and hold an attitude, without prangjng a nose wheel as an inevitable result...

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[Shadrach]

41 minutes ago, gsengle said:

Yes but what if you have wind shear? Gusting? We do need to know how to land fast, and hold an attitude, without prangjng a nose wheel as an inevitable result...

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No one should really land fast. If the approach is flown fast for whatever reason, then the additional energy should be dissipated in the air, not on the runway.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Shadrach

[gsengle]

Of course it is dissipated in the air. To fly these aircraft safely you should be able to fly a behind the power curve short field approach, a 1.3 x Vso standard approach and a wind shear added speed approach and manage the flare in all three cases imho. It's just that if you enter ground effect with excess speed in the latter case you have to know how to let the speed bleed off without ballooning or forcing it to the runway and bouncing the nose. In my experience the Mooney requires real pitch finesse to avoid ballooning if even slightly fast.

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[DXB]

I've a decent amount of experience with landing faster than I'd intended, I'm ashamed to admit. My one good habit is always maintaining steady back pressure on the yoke after touchdown and holding off on braking for a bit, irrespective of touchdown speed.  If there is an unanticipated bounce, this generally makes the second touchdown a nonevent.  I've never suffered a second bounce this way -knock on wood- hopefully I have the go around reflex somewhere if it ever happens, but I'm not sure.  If the bounce is embarrassingly high, adding a little power to soften the descent certainly helps.   

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, gsengle said:

Of course it is dissipated in the air. To fly these aircraft safely you should be able to fly a behind the power curve short field approach, a 1.3 x Vso standard approach and a wind shear added speed approach and manage the flare in all three cases imho. It's just that if you enter ground effect with excess speed in the latter case you have to know how to let the speed bleed off without ballooning or forcing it to the runway and bouncing the nose. In my experience the Mooney requires real pitch finesse to avoid ballooning if even slightly fast.

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My POH has the "behind the power curve" drag it to the threshold method for shortfield landings. I don't care for that method. I prefer steep and slow (1.1Vso) with power used only to manage descent on short final. This requires full aft elevator in the flare and yields the shortest landings.

Edited January 18, 2016 by Shadrach

[gsengle]

Ok, but I'd still call that a "behind the power curve" speed.... My point is only that you need to be able to handle these scenarios without porpoising...

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[rbuck]

I had the same exact problem when I first got my Mooney. As Marauder said, someone in my FBO told me "just look at the far end of the runway." I hadn't exactly done that before and wasn't sure about it. Sure enough, it solved the problem! 

Hope that your future landings are great!