Bravo Sold. No longer a Moniac.

[Mcstealth]

I also am living vicariously through you and your exploits. Keep em coming please.

[merrja]

John,

 

What a great gesture..... I wish I did business with such persons on a regular basis!  

[johnggreen]

Gentlemen,

 

I haven't posted lately as the A* has been in the avionics shop for a "new" panel.  I finally decided on Aspen Evolution 2000, two new GTN-650's, EDM 760 engine monitor and a new PMA 8000 audio panel.  Kept the weather radar and Stormscope, of course..  Oh, and did I say a new panel.

 

Supposed to pick it up Friday.  I had it scheduled for the paint shop for next week but got bumped by a Falcon 50 that the shop was charging $65,000 to paint, seems cheap to me?

 

My sons are home after finishing grad school and getting ready to go out on the world.  One has never gotten his PPL so we've been working in the Skylane to get him ready for his check ride; next Tuesday probably.  That will make me the recommending instructor for both my boys; great feeling.  Now, if I can just live long enough for the grandson to do the same; not likely though.

 

For those of you who are interested, I am going to write up a short "flying brief" of takeoff, climb, cruise, descent, and landing for the A*.  I'll be able to post my first impressions of the Aspen and 650's as well.  I suspect that I'll have some learning curve there.

 

FYI.  I'm almost embarrassed to say this, but my training in the A* got really side tracked.  I go to shoot 8 landings with the broker who handled the transaction and that was about it.  I memorized the POH, familiarized myself with the systems and frankly spent the next 15 hours teaching myself how to fly it.  The A* has one real "gotcha" that I will reveal at a later date.  Finally I got to fly with an approved A* instructor for 1.5 hours and by then, he confessed that as foolish as it was, I had been a pretty good teacher.

 

The insurance company covered me but said they wanted me to have a IPC before September 1. Yes that means my first 15 hours was without coverage.  Last week, I went to Recurrent Training Center in Champagne, Illinois and got A* recurrent, IPC, Bi-annual, and high altitude certification.  I spent an entire afternoon in a simulator doing engine outs just after wheels up that I think was very valuable.   We literally did them until I developed some "muscle memory" from the repetition, always SHOUTING, "left foot dead feather left engine" and vice versa.

 

I recommend RTC for those of you who want to brush up your instrument skills.  They have good sims and will fly with you in your airplane as well.  Champagne, Ill, is one nice town as well.  Not a bad place to spend three days.  By the way, the price for the 3 days was only $1700.

 

Understand, I do not recommend this self instruction business and don't intend to do it again.

 

More on the A* later.

 

With pics hopefully.

 

Jgreen

[Mcstealth]

Still interested in the learning curve and performance/efficiency.

Thank you for the write ups.

[johnggreen]

Still interested in the learning curve and performance/efficiency.

Thank you for the write ups.

Completion of the avionics work was delayed waiting for a 3rd party to finish the panel.  I'm picking it up tomorrow but will need to fly with a technician for calibrating of the Aspen.  The air speed readouts from the Aspen should be much more accurate and I'll be able to lean more efficiently with the addition of an engine monitor.

 

I know some of you are really interested in the flying techniques and characteristic of the A* and I will comply.  Perhaps not immediately, but I will as time allows.

 

I will admit that I'm entering the ownership of the A* with a little trepidation simply because my Bravo was so reliable and relatively inexpensive to fly.  It seems that the 601P will cost about 70% more to fly and maintain.  All in all, not that bad considering the benefits that will accrue.  It's just really been nice to own an airplane, the Bravo, where the costs were almost insignificant.  I have budgeted $17,000 year for annuals and maintenance with the A*.  That does not include fuel.  With the performance that the A* delivers, I will be able to fly it at about 60% power, get a full 200 knots at 15,000' and burn about 24 gph.  Though I have made only one long cross country to date, I can assure you that A/C and pressurization are more than just amenities; they put the comfort of flying into a new realm.  I'm scheduled for another X-C next week and I am truly looking forward to it.

 

I will have to admit, that in my first month of ownership, when I was "teaching" myself how to fly, I ran up a fuel bill that made my wife, who oversees all the book keeping for the company, ask if $3600 was going to be the norm.

 

Anyway, I will soon be posting the details of flying the A* and hope you all enjoy.

 

Jgreen

[carusoam]

The title of this thread is incorrect...

John,

You're still a Mooniac!

Best regards,

-a-

[jkhirsch]

John,

 

Just finished reading your thread and will continue to follow.

Massive thanks for contributing your story.

I have always had a thing for the Aerostars--I just don't exactly have the need for one yet--and I've thorougly enjoyed the read.

 

Jeff

[johnggreen]

I picked the A* up from the avionics shop Friday, Cumberland in Nashville, and have been flying it everyday to try to get used to the Aspen 2000 and GTN-650's.  I also had installed an EDM 760 engine monitor so with the Aspen and monitor, I feel more secure in the numbers I quote.

 

Coming home from Nashville, I was at 12.5, burning 26 gph and truing 191 knots.  That concurs with the numbers I was getting from the old AS and fuel flow.  At 17,000 that will give me a little over 200 knots at the same fuel consumption.  That is right on book at 55% power.  I do have intercoolers which seem to add a little speed and LOTS of cooling.  My cht's are all about 325 even in this heat.  What would she do at 17k and 75%?  The book says 240 and now, I have no reason to doubt it.  Those figures are at best economy so I suppose best power would inch it up some.

 

As to flying the A*, I will give some of my impressions and observations; some now, some later.

 

The "numbers" which I posted earlier like VMC, stall speed, blue line, etc. are very comparable with both the pressurized Baron and Duke.  Performance, likewise, seems to be similar with an edge to the A* but neither of the Beech products are anywhere near the fuel economy of the A*.

 

The 601P has turbo normalized engines with a max MP of 30".  Due to a higher compression, when they first came out, detonation was sometimes an issue.  Piper solved it with the 602P which is a true turbo engine but with lower compression.  Machen came out with intercoolers for the 601P that solved the detonation issue and greatly lowered operating temps; that is what I have.

 

The A* is, in my opinion, a very straight forward airplane both in flying and maintenance.  There are a few "quirks" and I will address those.  But first, let's talk about something it has in common with the Mooney design; both have laminar flow wings.  Interestingly, where the Mooney's laminar flow is fairly thick and has a substantial amount of dihedral, the A* wind is much thinner, and has only one degree of dihedral.  You would think that this design would make the airplane a little unstable in roll, but the opposite it true.  Unless you have a fuel imbalance in the wing tanks, more on this later, the airplane is rock solid in roll, noticeably so compared to my Bravo.  Also in contrast, where the Bravo was "heavy" on the elevator, and therefore very stable in pitch, the A* though stable has very, very light elevator response.  It is, to me, the challenge of hand flying it compared to the Bravo.

 

Another peculiarity is that the A* was certified without a stall warning device.  Not a problem I think as it gives ample warning from buffet alone.  That being said, an angle of attack instrument is on my wish list; not quite as simple with the pressurized fuselage though.

 

As far as the flying characteristics, in my opinion, there is only one "gotcha".  The flaps on the airplane are the fowler variety where they come back and down and really, really provide lots of drag when you go past 30 degrees, 45 degrees being max flap.  You DO NOT use full flaps except on landing on short final.  Extending full flaps is like throwing your mother in law and her car out the door tethered to the tail; the airplane slows down NOW.  The good thing is that once you have full flaps, you come up on power and point the airplane at the end of the runway.  It is like pointing a laser and as long as you don't get behind the power curve, it is like riding a cable to flare.  The book and, I think, most instructors say 100 on final with full flaps; 95 seems to be better at light weights.  For flare, you simply level the airplane out and pull the power.  What looks to be level is actually a perfect flare and unlike the Mooney, unless you didn't pull the power, there is no float.

 

Now, the "gotcha".  Look at these figures, all arrived at by me as I was exploring the envelope of the airplane.

With gear down and 20 degrees of flap, it requires 2400 rpm and 22" of manifold pressure to maintain altitude and blue line, 109 knots.

With gear down and 30 degrees, 2400 and 24" to maintain altitude and blue line.

With gear down and full flaps, 2500 rpm's and 29" MP which is full throttle, you can maintain altitude but only 105 knots.

 

What that means, in my evaluation, is that a go around on final with gear down and full flaps should be under emergency procedures.  I actually had to do this early on when a crop duster cut in front of me on final.  I eased the power up and raised the nose to level and the speed fell from 105 to 85 in a few short seconds.  Boy, did that get my attention!!

 

I would never willingly fly or land the airplane on a low IFR approach with more than 20 degrees of flaps.  I can't imagine having to deal with that scenario in instrument conditions.  The good thing is that the stall speed at typical landing weights is only 8 knots faster, about 74, than with full flaps.

 

For a "typical" VFR landing, this is my method.  First I pull the power back to about 18" and try to be at pattern altitude with less than 145 knots.  That is not really hard to do as you can lower 20 degrees of flaps at 174.  Gear speed is 156, but to save wear, I always try to be at less than 145.  So, 20 degrees of flaps and gear down on downwind.  If you are light, 15"-18" seems to work well as you work around to final.  By the time I line up on final, I want to be at blue line, but no less, which I will hold until short final when all the flaps come down.  100 knots until maybe 100' AGL and then 95 unless it's gusty or I'm heavy, even then 100 seems too fast.

 

Like I said, pull power, level off, and she is on the ground.  I would guess touchdown speed to be about 80 knots, but i intend to confirm this.  The airplane actually sits nose down so you need to try to hold it level on initial roll out.  When the airplane slows to about 65, you can pull full up elevator without lifting the nose wheel and it works almost like a speed brake.

 

The nose wheel casters "some" with no connection to the rudders.  I have found directional control to be no issue either in the takeoff or landing mode.  What the big rudder won't do, the seven puck Clevelands will, that too is a Machen add on over the standard brakes.  For tight maneuvering, you have an electric toggle switch on the console, but I only use it when I need to literally spin the airplane almost in its own length.

 

That should sate those with interest for awhile.  I need to eat supper.

 

And yes, Carusoam, I'm still a Mooniac.  The Bravo was a true pleasure and one that I REALLY COULD AFFORD.  Lots to be said for that.

 

Jgreen 

[johnggreen]

Hello to all,

 

Thought I'd give you an update that may well be informative as to more than just the A*.  As I said in the previous post, I had  dual Aspens installed with new GTN-650's and an EDM 760 engine monitor.  With the dual Aspens, it was not required that I keep the steam gauges so only the vacuum AI was retained to drive the C-IV autopilot.

 

I'll have to admit that the learning curve has been steep.  The GTN's are not that intuitive and it takes practice using them "in the real world" before you get comfortable.  The Aspen PFD demands a completely different "scan" than steam gauges and after 50 years (learned to fly at eleven) of scanning steam, retraining my eyes to an Aspen didn't come quickly.  You can see and understand gauges with peripheral vision, you/I can't do that with the Aspen.  There are 70, yes 70 buttons, numbers, tapes etc. on the face of an Aspen PFD and you have to learn to develop what I will call a stare, not scan, to read them.  COMPLETELY DIFFERENT FROM GAUGES.

 

The good news is that all that info is contained in a space of about 3" x 6" so your eyes don't have to refocus to different distances as you "scan" from one bit of information to the other.

 

After about 25 hours of flying with the GTN's and the Aspens and at least 15 of those hours hand flying under the hood or actual IFR conditions, I am beginning to feel comfortable.  My first real IFR approach in high density conditions (DC area) barely made the grade, in fact, I almost had to declare a missed, but my last three have been to my old standards of "damn near nailed the bars".

 

Had I retained the steam gauges, the transition would have been easier simply because I would have relied on the gauges when I got discombobulated.  That would have also lengthened my learning curve.  

 

So, my point, and advice is, if/when you go to glass, be it Garmin or Aspen, don't underestimate the demands of the transition.

 

My next step is to install a second pitot/static system to drive a single Aspen PFD on the copilot's side.

 

As frustrated as I was at times with the transition to glass, when I get truly proficient, my situational awareness will be far and away better than I have ever experienced.

 

I attached a pic of the still not painted A* with old panel.  Paint?  Probably after the first of the year.

 

Jgreen

[sreid]

Just curious, does it have any ice protection? I don't see boots.

Steve

[johnggreen]

Just curious, does it have any ice protection? I don't see boots.

Steve

Steve,

 

No.  When I found this particular airplane, it had almost every Machen conversion which are all very desirable.   Intercoolers, inconel exhausts,  heavy duty landing gear trusses, etc.  All told, the cost of those conversions would cost more than I paid for the airplane.  I had TKS on the Bravo and as I usually fly in the south and southeast, didn't use it often.  It was a trade off and I may have to add boots, but I hope not.

 

Jgreen

[Marauder]

John -- thanks for the write-up on the transition. I was in the same situation last December. For me it was even tougher since I was strictly a steam gauge pilot. I never flew behind "real" glass before and the closest I ever came to it was a portable GPS. I had an ADF, 2 VORs both with glideslope capability and a LORAN with the sole purpose of lowering my useful load. Once I got the plane back, I was flying from the hat rack in the back. Between learning the GTN and how the Aspen interfaced, it took some time. Even the features in the new PS Engineering audio panel were initially overwhelming. Now that I am over that hump, I am finding that equipment is actually reducing my workload. Like you pointed out, everything is in a tighter scan. I especially love the vertical/horizontal deviation bars that pop up on the PFD. Thanks for sharing. Here is a video I made of an LPV approach I flew with the new equipment and the AP:

[johnggreen]

Marauder,

 

Great video.  I made my last post as a "caution" to those switching to glass.  It isn't as easy as it appears.  I had the combination of a new airplane, new glass panel, new GTN's, yes, the PS engineering audio panel, new engine monitor and an autopilot, the C-IV, which was also new to me.  Learning to fly glass without backup steam gauges with all the other unfamiliar equipment, was a humbling experience.  I can comfortably say that it was at least 50% of the learning curve of getting an instrument ticket.  The real problem, at least for me, was that I could find no instructor who was reasonably accessible that had any knowledge of any of the above.

 

So, I'm saying to all you guys who want to make the transition and who truly fly real IFR weather, be ready for a steep learning curve.  This is no time for Sky King bravado.

 

What did you use to make the video and how did you down load to the site?  That might be a neat thing to do with the Aerostar.

 

Jgreen

[Marauder]

Marauder,

 

Great video.  I made my last post as a "caution" to those switching to glass.  It isn't as easy as it appears.  I had the combination of a new airplane, new glass panel, new GTN's, yes, the PS engineering audio panel, new engine monitor and an autopilot, the C-IV, which was also new to me.  Learning to fly glass without backup steam gauges with all the other unfamiliar equipment, was a humbling experience.  I can comfortably say that it was at least 50% of the learning curve of getting an instrument ticket.  The real problem, at least for me, was that I could find no instructor who was reasonably accessible that had any knowledge of any of the above.

 

So, I'm saying to all you guys who want to make the transition and who truly fly real IFR weather, be ready for a steep learning curve.  This is no time for Sky King bravado.

 

What did you use to make the video and how did you down load to the site?  That might be a neat thing to do with the Aerostar.

 

Jgreen

 

Thanks John. Your comments about finding an instructor hit home. A friend of mine is a CFII and a 3000+ hour Mooney owner.  He has a 530 but nothing else. Funny story. Shortly after getting the hardware, I had him give me an IPC in the plane. He was learning as I was. He wanted me to fail the PFD to do partial panel. When I turned the power switch off to it, the unit went into battery mode (usually when you throw the power switch on the ground it shuts down). Neither one of us could figure out how to shut it off. He really wanted me to fly the mechanical AI, so he had me shut off the avionics master and then the master. When that didn't work, he placed a post it over the display. I then hit the reversion button and cross filled the PFD information into the MFD. Out came more post it notes. 

 

The PFD and MFD were happily running in battery mode... I learned later after reading the manual again that the units have an airspeed sensing circuit which tells it to go into battery mode in flight. To shut them off, I needed to hold the red reversion buttons... Little details.

 

As for the video, I was using a Canon HD camera. The audio was made by plugging an Intercom Recording Cable into the headset jack (Obtained from Barnstormers, Item# IRC0014S). It was really bumpy on that flight. I download the video into iMovie on my Mac and then built out the transitions and used iMovie to upload it to my YouTube account. When you place it on YouTube, you can copy the link for the video and post it here. I would love to see one from the inside of an Aerostar.

 

Chris

[carusoam]

That is an amazing amount of information in a very small area.

I got my flying fix for the day. Thank you gents....

Best regards,

-a-

[johnggreen]

Got the A* from the paint shop.  Not the best pic so I'll take a better one later and post.  Almost there but still a few more kinks to work out.  Loving the A* but I assure, the Bravo was a lot less trouble.

 

Jgreen

[carusoam]

John,

Was the N601JG already taken?

Looks like a nice sunny day following you around today.

Best regards,

-a-

[johnggreen]

John,

Was the N601JG already taken?

Looks like a nice sunny day following you around today.

Best regards,

-a-

 

I have always wanted to put 449JG on an airplane.  Been holding off for years waiting for that King Air or Lear, but alas, such are the vagaries of life.  As the lyrics to an Elvis song go, "It's now or never."

 

After a wet spring, we are enjoying 80 degree temps and beautiful blue skies.  Nothing prettier than a sunny spring or fall day in Mississippi.  The weekend promises the same, but I have to finish up two miles of pasture fencing so I can move some heifers off of hay ground.  Still get to enjoy Mother Nature's bounty only with a pair of fence pliers in my hand.  Life IS good!

 

Jgreen

[johnggreen]

Karen and I took some better pics today.  I want to thank Brian Smith for developing the designs from which I chose this paint scheme.

He is incredibly good and ridiculously reasonable.  I almost felt guilty for what I paid for such quality work.

 

Jgreen

[johnggreen]

I was a Bravo owner and an active member of this forum for several years.  During that time, I accumulated a few "uncomfortable acquaintances" and many friends.  Some of those friends went so far as to write letters, letters, not emails, as to how much they had enjoyed "post swapping" with me.  That's nice.  You know, my son Grant taught me that we all share 99% of each other and divulge/differ to about 1%.  Yet, it seems that we spend a lot of time focusing on our differences.  Grant reveled in people's "differences" seeking them out, learning about them, and most of all, showing respect for them.  I bought a Cub and taught Grant to fly when he was nine years old, his brother eleven.  He soloed that Cub one lazy summer afternoon that was perhaps a little earlier than anticipated by the authorities that be.  I got my instructor's rating and instrument instructors endorsement so I could be the one to sign them off for their PPL.  Grant got his PPL in high school and we enjoyed many, many trips together.  He got his undergraduate at Northwestern, became a derivatives trader, then went back and got his MBA at Darden School of Business at the University of Virginia where he graduated last May.

 

There are other things I could say, but you get the idea.  He was my precious son.  Grant had gone temporarily to explore some job opportunities in silicon valley, got a sub lease on a completely furnished apartment for 6 months and was to return home next month.

 

Last Saturday night, he fell from a roof top patio at the apartment building.  He's gone, and there is nothing else to say.

 

Love your children everyday.  Life is simply unpredictable.

 

Love to all of you.

 

John Green

[johnggreen]

The last picture of Grant taken at a family gathering on June 1.  Grant on the left, my grandson Hugh, and my other son, John Jr.

[Marauder]

John - my deepest condolences on your loss. It is one of life's unfair twists when a parent outlives a child. May the memories of your time together bring some comfort in your time of pain. Keep the faith...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[aaronk25]

DSCN0536.JPG

The last picture of Grant taken at a family gathering on June 1. Grant on the left, my grandson Hugh, and my other son, John Jr.

Very sorry John. Unbelievable. Thoughts and prayers with you and your family.

Aaron.

[carusoam]

Prayers.........,

-a-

[DaV8or]

Love your children everyday.  Life is simply unpredictable.

 

Love to all of you.

 

John Green

 

This is spot on. None of us know how long we have, or when, or how we'll leave. We all need to live life accordingly IMO.

 

John- My deepest sympathies and condolences. This has got to be one of, if not the worst time in your life. This is likely the toughest challenge you have ever faced. You clearly did a fine job of raising your boys and Grant no doubt enjoyed a rich and satisfying life with love and laughter. You did well and he lived well. None of us can ask for anymore... except more time.

 

Again, prayers to you and your family. Blue skies and fair weather in your travels with Grant there with you where ever you go.