Landings

[jetdriven]

I fly short final at 80MPH primarily because there is an 80 on my speedo (outer# and with full flaps VSO-57 or No flaps VS-67) and the number is easy to scan/pick-up easily.  Once runway is "made" I am power off.

 

Knots or MPH above Byron? 1.2 VSO is 68MPH for my M20E and that is where I am over the numbers...or I just let it slow if a little fast in round out before flare.

I should have listed that. We have an early light J and the speed is in MPH.

 

I prefer knots, but I use the numbers on the outside of the ASI because its easier to read.

[Marauder]

I fly short final at 80MPH primarily because there is an 80 on my speedo (outer# and with full flaps VSO-57 or No flaps VS-67) and the number is easy to scan/pick-up easily. Once runway is "made" I am power off. Knots or MPH above Byron? 1.2 VSO is 68MPH for my M20E and that is where I am over the numbers...or I just let it slow if a little fast in round out before flare. I should have listed that. We have an early light J and the speed is in MPH. I prefer knots, but I use the numbers on the outside of the ASI because its easier to read.

I had my ASI converted this year to show the knots on the outer ring. Everything else I do is in knots and since the ASI was original, I thought it would be a good time to have it rebuilt and the conversion done. Amazing how white the letters are now!

[jetdriven]

I had my ASI converted this year to show the knots on the outer ring. Everything else I do is in knots and since the ASI was original, I thought it would be a good time to have it rebuilt and the conversion done. Amazing how white the letters are now!

lets see a picture

[robert7467]

Thanks Seth, I know I might sound hard headed at times in the post, but I am really not. Like at work, when a customer has a situation, I generally follow up with a phone call, because sometimes writing can sound a little harsh. I have no doubt, that 99% of the people on this board are friendly, and love GA as much as I do. I look forward to becoming a better pilot and contributing to GA.

[rob]

_{Does anyone ever choose to land with a tailwind?  I don't do tailwinds except on the rare occasion (less than 6 landings) when wind shifts.  My plane floats like crazy with a tailwind...}

 

 

I have chosen to land with a tailwind (under 10 kts) to avoid backtaxiing on a runway with a taxiway only at one end. Granted, the runway was 4000' and a bit of an uphill grade. It's a non-event.

[rob]

Robert-

 Landing with a tailwind simply means your relative speed to the ground is faster and and you will be pushed down the runway, so understand that the landing and lanidng roll will eat up more runway.  The important aspect is it will seem faster to you - do not pull power to compensate - if you get too slow with a tailwind, you will lose your lift and stall/slam in too early.  Make sure your airspeed is on. 

 

Whenever I land with a tailwind, I double and tripple check the airspeed indicator because my mind is telling me I'm coming in too fast because groundspeed wise I'm about 10-20 knots faster than usual over the threshold - 75 MPH +5 knows (80 MPH) instead of 75 MPH-10/15 (60-65 MPH).  Your brain will try to make you pull power and stall - make sure you hold the right airspeed regardless of ground speed.

 

 

-Seth

 

This is especially true at altitude, as well. If you're used to flying at or near sea level and then go land in Denver, it's going to seem like you're going very fast...

[Marauder]

I had my ASI converted this year to show the knots on the outer ring. Everything else I do is in knots and since the ASI was original, I thought it would be a good time to have it rebuilt and the conversion done. Amazing how white the letters are now! lets see a picture

This is the "before" picture. I will post the "after" picture this evening (need to take it first)

[kmyfm20s]

Good job!

[scottfromiowa]

Thanks Seth, I know I might sound hard headed at times in the post, but I am really not. Like at work, when a customer has a situation, I generally follow up with a phone call, because sometimes writing can sound a little harsh. I have no doubt, that 99% of the people on this board are friendly, and love GA as much as I do. I look forward to becoming a better pilot and contributing to GA.

Nothing wrong with being "hard-headed"...interpret that as being "committed to your belief".  Some on this website changed my use of flaps...I didn't use them on all landings when I first bought my plane...and I was landing too fast.  Posts and knowledge gained and shared by others "converted" me.  I feel VERY STRONGLY that you should be trimming your plane for hands off/light control forces AT ALL TIMES....If belief and defending your position is interpreted as "Bashing/Harsh"...I would say sorry for your interpretation.  Hopefully my post clarifies my position.  I learn every time I fly and have learned much from this site...I strongly believe in "A good pilot is always learning"...a big part of that is being open to change/alternative techniques and being challenged for yours.  I welcome challenge as it provokes reflection and thought and hopefully promotes the ability to learn/adapt.

[jlunseth]

I also land often in gusty, crosswind conditions.  75 knots and full flaps works fine for steady winds down the runway or no wind, but if you are getting gusty crosswinds you will need more airspeed for the rudder authority it creates.  Long runway is a good idea also.  We have nearly 90 degree runways at my home field, KFCM.  They are 18-36 and two parallels at 10-28.  The field is also on a plateau, which creates interesting winds as well.  I will generally go out a few times a year and practice landing on 10R-28L, which is the longest parallel, with 180 winds in the 20's.  I found I needed to develop this skill for long cross countries, where the landing conditions 4 hours later at the other end are sometimes not even remotely what was forecast.

 

But I would say you should start with winds you are comfortable with and get your basic technique down.  For gusty and heavy crosswinds you will need to learn to land on the upwind main and make sure the plane is aligned with the runway before letting the downwind main and then the nose wheel make contact, and you will need to stay alert even after you are on the ground because you will not have the steering authority you might like, when the plane is still light on its feet but slowing down.

[Becca]

Great, Robert.  The correct VREF depends on weight, winds, and flap setting.  If you are solo and really low on fuel, you can go to 70. I typically use 72 ovee the threshold myself.  But you must be highly aware of decaying airspeed and correct immediately for it.

 

I want to be very very clear here about the decaying speed is a real issue.  Byron and I were practicing short field landings and I was slowing to right around 75 mph, he wanted me right at 72 for short field on the numbers.  I pulled the power completely off, but I was already so close to my desired speed and converging and didn't adjust the attitude immediately when I adjusted the throttle.  The plane fell out of the sky, though things could have been worse, it was by far the worst landing I've made since I was a student pilot.  That speed falls off quickly in the 70 mph range.  Usually I approach at between 75-80 mph over numbers and that gives me a lot more wiggle room to adjust my speed than 72 mph does. 

[201er]

I want to be very very clear here about the decaying speed is a real issue.  Byron and I were practicing short field landings and I was slowing to right around 75 mph, he wanted me right at 72 for short field on the numbers.  I pulled the power completely off, but I was already so close to my desired speed and converging and didn't adjust the attitude immediately when I adjusted the throttle.  The plane fell out of the sky, though things could have been worse, it was by far the worst landing I've made since I was a student pilot.  That speed falls off quickly in the 70 mph range.  Usually I approach at between 75-80 mph over numbers and that gives me a lot more wiggle room to adjust my speed than 72 mph does. 

That's putting it really mildly compared to what Byron told me. He gave me the impression that he came out with a crater the size of texas on his underside!

[aaronk25]

On my J, assuming same as every other one if you hit your speed right you should here the stall horn at least chirp when just past end of runway and full stall horn for probably around 3-4 sec.

When I cross the fence it's idle and slowly start to flair, if it starts falling out from under you just ad a hint of power.

It's amazing how well you can grease short feild landings when using proper power. But I also fly 2-3 times every week and can make the bird do exactly what I want to.

It's also ok to flare more or as said before to add a hint of power to keep it from falling out from under you if you misjudged the flair by a couple feet.

[robert7467]

Yeah, I did notice speed bleeding off a little faster, maybe I will try 78. From what I see, there is no magic number because every situation is different, I guess I can just chalk up my bouncy landings as a bad day.

[Marauder]

The after picture

[jetdriven]

I really like that airspeed indicator, who did that, and the cost? 

[Marauder]

I really like that airspeed indicator, who did that, and the cost?

Mid Continent Instrument in Kansas did the work. I paid $375 through the avionics shop, so I suspect, okay, I know there was some mark-up from them. I'm really happy with the quality of the work. In addition to the new face, they went though the unit and verified functionality after their rebuild.

[Z W]

I can attest to the impressive sink rates you can encounter in a Mooney with power at idle and airspeed below 80 MPH.  My worst landing recently involved a plane near gross weight, a slightly high approach (dumped by ATC), and low airspeed.  I normally descend first and then bleed speed, but for some reason I found myself high and slow this time.  Unfamiliar airport and terrain may have been a factor.

 

I cut the power over the fence and the plane dropped out from under me.  I was probably doing 75 MPH.

 

At this point, you are "behind the power curve" and pulling back on the yoke only increases your rate of descent, as you lose speed.  The only way out is power, as somebody described above.  I added a lot, bounced hard, and then landed uneventfully.  It's easy to do, and can be a surprise.  I didn't realize what was happening in time to avoid the bounce.

 

Nothing wrong with 75 MPH on short final, just be careful about pulling the power to idle at that speed.  You might accidentally lose 2-3 MPH and find yourself sinking more than you planned.  I prefer 80 MPH for anything other than a short field landing.  It just gives you more cushion, although you will float more than necessary.  The real job as a pilot is picking the right speed for the runway, wind, and weight of your current flight.

[Oscar Avalle]

Robert-

Landing with a tailwind simply means your relative speed to the ground is faster and and you will be pushed down the runway, so understand that the landing and lanidng roll will eat up more runway. The important aspect is it will seem faster to you - do not pull power to compensate - if you get too slow with a tailwind, you will lose your lift and stall/slam in too early. Make sure your airspeed is on.

Whenever I land with a tailwind, I double and tripple check the airspeed indicator because my mind is telling me I'm coming in too fast because groundspeed wise I'm about 10-20 knots faster than usual over the threshold - 75 MPH +5 knows (80 MPH) instead of 75 MPH-10/15 (60-65 MPH). Your brain will try to make you pull power and stall - make sure you hold the right airspeed regardless of ground speed.

-Seth

This is especially true at altitude, as well. If you're used to flying at or near sea level and then go land in Denver, it's going to seem like you're going very fast...

Yes I can attest to that. DA makes a huge difference

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Hank]

Guys--

 

What's up with the circles around the numbers on your ASI? To me, that just makes them hard to read. Here's what I see, MPH outside and little Knots on the inside ring. Of course, my Owner's Manual is all in MPH.

 

Regardless of units or circles or whatever, compensation must always be applied for conditions. In this photo, I'm at level cruise at 10,000 msl, so true airspeed is 20% higher than indicated [135 mph becomes 162 true]. If I was landing, I would still want to indicate 70-75 MPH but that would be 84-90 MPH true. Long rollout for sure!

[Marauder]

Guys-- What's up with the circles around the numbers on your ASI? To me, that just makes them hard to read. Here's what I see, MPH outside and little Knots on the inside ring. Of course, my Owner's Manual is all in MPH. Regardless of units or circles or whatever, compensation must always be applied for conditions. In this photo, I'm at level cruise at 10,000 msl, so true airspeed is 20% higher than indicated [135 mph becomes 162 true]. If I was landing, I would still want to indicate 70-75 MPH but that would be 84-90 MPH true. Long rollout for sure!

Don't know about the circles Hank. My factory original with MPH on the outside and knots on the inside had circles around them. Every Mooney I have flown has had the circles. Any chance you have an aftermarket ASI?

[scottfromiowa]

Circles were a 70's thing...my '66 does not have them. I like it. Stands out more on a quick glance. Any changes to flaps on later C models? My max flap is 100MPH. Was this just a later cert for these airframes or were there changes?

[jetdriven]

I like the circles. It gets hard to see the numbers when you need glasses, and I know where  the 60-80-100 circles are. I can just use those.  Park that needle between the 60 and 80 and land that thing. Then I pull the freaking wingtip through a chainlink fence when pulling it by hand to the gas pump.  My mechanic asked "Who's fault is that?".  OF course it is the SOB who put the fence there in 1980.....

 

Long story short, I like the circles.  I also like Journey and Boston, maybe I am stuck in the 70s myself.

[Marauder]

I like the circles. It gets hard to see the numbers when you need glasses, and I know where the 60-80-100 circles are. I can just use those. Park that needle between the 60 and 80 and land that thing. Then I pull the freaking wingtip through a chainlink fence when pulling it by hand to the gas pump. My mechanic asked "Who's fault is that?". OF course it is the SOB who put the fence there in 1980..... Long story short, I like the circles. I also like Journey and Boston, maybe I am stuck in the 70s myself.

I do too, more so as I got older

[Hank]

Don't know about the circles Hank. My factory original with MPH on the outside and knots on the inside had circles around them. Every Mooney I have flown has had the circles. Any chance you have an aftermarket ASI?

 

I don't know about my ASI; the plane is mid-1970, I bought her in 2007, and had to send out the ASI and Altimeter in 2009. There were no circles before that, either.

 

Circles were a 70's thing...my '66 does not have them. I like it. Stands out more on a quick glance. Any changes to flaps on later C models? My max flap is 100MPH. Was this just a later cert for these airframes or were there changes?

 

I think there were across-the-board structural changes at some point, just like the rudder was lengthened in 65/66 to be the full height of the empennage instead of stopping at the elevator. My [electric] Vfo is 125 MPH; my [electric] Vg is 120 MPH. On instrument approaches, I slow to ~120, Takeoff Flaps, trim level, and crossing FAF or 1½ dots above glideslope throw out the wheels and start down.