Don't make the same mistake I did

[aaronk25]

  On 3/2/2013 at 2:32 AM, jetdriven said:

Shock cooling is a myth. If they are 475 when you pull the power off to idle, maybe thats a problem but the problem is the 475 CHT, not the rapid cooling.   Ring flutter is not, however, so avoid operations at high IAS below 15" of manifold pressure.

 

Skydive planes and glider planes routinely make TBO, and they have a hot Vy climb at maximum power to 12,000  (or 2000) feet, then a power off descent. I even knew a guy who used a Queen Air with the GO-430 geared engines, and he was at TBO running well.

I agree.  I think its also a function of high cht, not rapid cool down.  The cooling of the head is a opposite reaction to heating  and there isn't a requirement to apply 1/2  power on the runway, wait a min, and then 3/4 power, wait a min and before applying full power in a effort to slowly raise the chts.  What do you think happens when the engine goes from idle to full power in  4 secs or so???    

 

I call BS on the shock cooling.  If for some reason the sky dive group had issues with cylinders and implemented changes and now there not consuming cylinders like before,  is it possible that they became more aware of the possible high CHT condition on climb out and climbed at a higher true airspeed, and lowered the peak cht temps?

[Hank]

Why does it take 4 seconds to reach full Takeoff power? It won't "save the engine."

Ever watch a video of Bob Hoover from inside the cockpit? Full throttle to idle as fast as he can move the lever; idle to full power just as fast, except when doing an engine restart.

I go from 1000 RPM to full forward while rolling just over the length of the numbers. If it's cold, my first flight and short taxi time, I'll advance the throttle slower, but there are still trees just over 3000 feet away. Warm up your engine before taking to the runway, but please don't do it at the hold short in front of me.

[aaronk25]

  On 3/2/2013 at 4:12 PM, Hank said:

Why does it take 4 seconds to reach full Takeoff power? It won't "save the engine."

Ever watch a video of Bob Hoover from inside the cockpit? Full throttle to idle as fast as he can move the lever; idle to full power just as fast, except when doing an engine restart.

I go from 1000 RPM to full forward while rolling just over the length of the numbers. If it's cold, my first flight and short taxi time, I'll advance the throttle slower, but there are still trees just over 3000 feet away. Warm up your engine before taking to the runway, but please don't do it at the hold short in front of me.

I'm not warming up my engine in front of you what the heck are you talking about? Advancing the throttle smoothly is less stress than jamming the throttle forward.

When I did my private check ride in a warrior DPE and warbird pilot Doug Rozendaal gave me a good lecture after jamming the throttle forward on a planned go around. He said in some planes the engine could kill or stutter badly by doing that and your best advancing the throttle smoothly but briskly.

Maybe its not 4 sec but its 2.5 at least.

[jetdriven]

Rozendall is the shit. I dont know if a Continental 65 HP cares, but  counterweighted engine definately needs smooth throttle application. It is much easier on the engine and the conterweights. 2-3 seconds. I set it at 1700 RPM brakes held, then give it 3 seconds to full bore.  Same wit a go-around or missed, 3 seconds or so.  Not 15 seconds, thats way too much.

[Hondo]

Awful_Charlie

 

Thanks for posting the Lasham gliding club procedures.  Their flying and engine operating procedures were obviously based on their experience.

 

Everything from advancing throttles to evaluating and avoiding wake turbulence were covered in that understated English way.

[DaV8or]

  On 3/2/2013 at 4:12 PM, Hank said:

Ever watch a video of Bob Hoover from inside the cockpit? Full throttle to idle as fast as he can move the lever; idle to full power just as fast, except when doing an engine restart.

 

Do you know how many cylinders Bob Hoover's sponsors bought? I don't.

[jetdriven]

none.  Both of his Victor Black engines went to TBO without a cylinder change, through two cycles.

[benpilot]

 

Robert,

 

Sorry to hear about this accident. I ingrain this as a student pilot forever in my memory:

 

  Quote

to realize how thoroughly I've disregarded the advice we all read from time to time, which is to be "primed" for a go round

 

One thing that my instructor taught me was to ALWAYS use a Go Around if I ever was not 100% sure of the landing. I did a few go arounds recently when I was coming in too fast and too high. 

[DAVIDWH]

After reading the above, I believe it would be prudent to stop texting while in the pattern.

 

Distractions are everywhere and sometimes GUMP on final isn't enough.

 

Thanks again for sharing, could happen to anyone.

[flyboy0681]

I always pore over incident reports like this, read them carefully and try to absorb them into my DNA, especially those that show how distraction led to a series of failures. I'm actually glad that I don't have speed brakes because it forces me to use the gear to slow down when approaching the airport traffic area. I also subscribe to applying flaps when 1000 above the airport, more as a habit than anything else. However, with my instrument training I see how things can happen because shooting an approach at 100-110kts mean having slowed down gradually and takes me away from my VFR routine and these tasks (GUMPS + flaps) need to be applied by the FAF by procedure and memory . If things are busy, there's a distraction or the approach is not stabilized, I can see stuff happening - really bad stuff.

[jlunseth]

I am half with you on shock cooling.  I do not worry about it in the warm months, but when it is below 40 F I start to worry.  In the winter we sometimes see -20's for many days, and that makes for a combination of not only low temperatures, but very dense air that cools very efficiently.  The flight schools around here all have restrictions on students flying below certain temps, and I am careful with the engine.

 

On the distractions, I am practicing power off 180's for commercial right now, and I find I am vulnerable enough on them that I can't succeed with something else going on in the pattern.  Night before last there was a NORDO Piper near the airport so I went to the next one, where there was someone flying an ultralight (NORDO of course) and then a bizjet that needed time on the runway.   I tried two landings but could not get either one to work, always some minor detail I had overlooked while watching the mess go on.  I just go elsewhere now.

[N9201A]

Robert thank you for sharing what has to have been a stressful and difficult experience.  Good luck getting everything back together and back in the air soon!

[Earl]

I wonder why all the speed brake bashing on Mooneyspace.  I fly in and out of the Atlanta Class B and I can tell you they are an invaluable tool.  Just today they came in very handy.  As often happens, for traffic they kept me high until I was pretty close to KRYY.  I just started descending out of 11K ATC came back and said I needed to be at 8,000 in less than 3 minutes.  So I needed to drop down at 1,000 fpm at a time I was trying to slow down for the RNAV approach.  I could have said unable and who knows what would have happened but someone would have had to be moved around to maintain separation and it would have just as likely been me.  Because of speed brakes I was able to accommodate ATC and had no turns or delays in shooting the approach.  Sometimes things happen and they are a tool in the box that should be used and aren't always or in my case they are almost never a result of poor planning or piloting.

[fantom]

  On 8/16/2013 at 7:01 PM, Earl said:

I wonder why all the speed brake bashing on Mooneyspace.

 

Either envy or ignorance, depending on the basher of course

[flyboy0681]

  On 8/16/2013 at 7:15 PM, fantom said:

Either envy or ignorance, depending on the basher of course

 

If that comment was in response to my reply, I didn't say they don't have their place. Earl gave a perfect example of where they can be very useful, however, my comment was limited to their application when approaching the airport traffic area. The gear is my speed brake and and if my plane was equipped with the ones tucked inside the wings, I'd be willing to bet that use of those when approaching the airport would delay my deployment of the gear.

[Bennett]

i have them, use them, and enjoy having them Just another tool to use when appropriate. Some days all way to landing. Some days, not at all.

[HopePilot]

Speed brakes are awesome and you can even use them to julienne vegetables, after you land.  Conversation closed.

[flyboy0681]

  On 8/16/2013 at 10:22 PM, HopePilot said:

Speed brakes are awesome and you can even use them to julienne vegetables, after you land.  Conversation closed.

 

As Ron Popeil would say, "it slices, it dices and makes mounds and mounds of coleslaw"

[fantom]

  On 8/16/2013 at 8:02 PM, flyboy0681 said:

If that comment was in response to my reply ......

 

I said envy or ignorance, Mike, not paranoia......  

[WardHolbrook]

Stabilized approaches aren't just for jets. Unfortunately, it's a lesson that we all need to relearn from time to time. As far as speed brakes go, what's the old line..."They're for my mistakes, not ATC's" (or words to that effect). Yes they are not the most efficient way to manage your energy, but just like in a jet, when you need them you need them. I've always found that when I find myself being rushed in any phase of flight - from preflight planning though shutdown and putting it in the hangar at the end of the flight - I'm most susceptible to screwing something up. That's always the time to slow down and start being a bit more deliberate in your actions.  

[Jamie]

There's a bit of the "well, a -real- pilot wouldn't have to use speedbrakes so if I use speedbrakes I'm not a real pilot" mentality going on with the "speedbrakes are bad" crowd, I think.

 

Speedbrakes aren't inefficient, cheating or unprofessional. They alter lift and drag in a way that may or may not be useful at any particular time. Spoilers and thrust reversers are just as crude and if I had 'em, I'd certainly use them. In fact, so far, no one has provided a convincing argument against speed brakes themselves. Instead the debate seems to center around the perceived bad habits that speed brakes may or may not encourage.

 

Engineer: "Hey, here's a way to lose a lot of speed / altitude in a hurry, you can deploy at any speed, and turn it off in < 5 seconds. Want it?"

 

Amateur Pilot: "No, no thanks. I might, at some point, through some unlikely set of circumstances misuse it.  A Real Pilot would be able to manage his energy profile without 'em, and by god so can I".

 

Real Pilot: "Sure. Do they come in racing red?"

[RocketAviator]

RobertE,

After 30 years of flying with never so much as a scratch on an airplane.  I too have had while not exactly the same but maybe a similar experience with my Mooney this year!

 

My ol bucket of bolts should be ready to fly again next week if there are no further delays!!  While the plane may be as good as it was my pride will forever be bruised and I am not sure that is a bad thing if it keeps me from making the same mistake again! 

 

I have flown my other plane for a little over 50 hours since the incident and I can tell you that and I hope it never changes, I certainly approach my flying and especially the landings with a much higher degree of awareness, pre-planning and double checking than I believe I did in the past.  

I use speed brakes often in my Rocket, I find them like every other feature on the plane they can be very useful but like everything else they add one more degree of complexity!

 

I am very fond and often recite:

The difference between a Smart Man & a Wise Man is the Smart Man learns from his mistakes, while the Wise Man learns from someone elses!"

 

Fly safe,

[WardHolbrook]

  On 8/17/2013 at 3:03 AM, Jamie said:

There's a bit of the "well, a -real- pilot wouldn't have to use speedbrakes so if I use speedbrakes I'm not a real pilot" mentality going on with the "speedbrakes are bad" crowd, I think.

 

Speedbrakes aren't inefficient, cheating or unprofessional. They alter lift and drag in a way that may or may not be useful at any particular time. Spoilers and thrust reversers are just as crude and if I had 'em, I'd certainly use them. In fact, so far, no one has provided a convincing argument against speed brakes themselves. Instead the debate seems to center around the perceived bad habits that speed brakes may or may not encourage.

 

Engineer: "Hey, here's a way to lose a lot of speed / altitude in a hurry, you can deploy at any speed, and turn it off in < 5 seconds. Want it?"

 

Amateur Pilot: "No, no thanks. I might, at some point, through some unlikely set of circumstances misuse it.  A Real Pilot would be able to manage his energy profile without 'em, and by god so can I".

 

Real Pilot: "Sure. Do they come in racing red?"

I've got a little over 11,000 hours in speed brake equipped aircraft. Here's what I've learned...

1. Never put out the boards if a power reduction will suffice. That can be easier said than done on piston-powered airplanes.
2. If you need them use them.
3. If you find yourself using them every time on every approach you may want to rethink your procedures.

 

It's really that simple. They really are a great tool to have at your disposal; however, they are only indispensable in gliders. 

[jetdriven]

if you arent afraid of airspeed, a M20J will descend at over 1000 FPM at top of the green, and this is with cruise power set. 

[RJBrown]

Speed brakes are necessary equipment on a Rocket. Using 55% power, the minimum recommended by Rocket, you are still making 168HP. More power than my MSE can make here in Colorado. Many times 1000FPM will not meet the decent rate needed to follow ATC assignments. Before I installed speed brakes on N231NH I flew a maintenance check flight from APA to COS and 26,000'. It took only 18 minutes, leveling 3 times for center, to get up that high. It took more than twice that time to come back down. If you have ever flown in to APA via the larks arrival you know what center can do to you. They set you up for a decent as lf you intend to land at DEN then slam dunk you into APA when less than 5 miles away from cassie. Have you ever been "established" on the ILS at 300 knots? Not a pretty sight.

 On the other hand I agree with Byron, not needed on a J. I would not add them to my J at any price.