Reseal or bladders

[jetdriven]

By the time you pay for the reseal job, the ferry time both ways, and the airline tickets both ways I bet it is real close to the same either way.

[aaronk25]

Byron,

What do you have in your plane? Or what would you do when time comes?

[jetdriven]

I have 23 year old bladders that came with it. My plan is to overhaul individual cells if they ever leak, which might still be a while. My Dr's 1974 V35B still has the original bladders in it as well, he repaired one a few years ago.

[marks]

If you check Aviation Consumer on this topic you'll see that Don Maxwell sends his customers to Weep No More LLC for a full reseal when necessary. Paul Beck at Weep No More developed a system that uses a sprinkler system inside the tanks to dissolve the old sealant without scraping. When Mooney makes good on factory warrantees regarding tank seals, they now send the aircraft to Weep No More. For my J, I found the price competitive at $7,725 for everything including gaskets installation and seals for where the fuel sensor lines enter the cabin. I suggest you call to get your name on the list as it generally takes a good four month wait to get in. If you try to patch the leak you will be spending money to delay the inevitable IMHO.

[Hank]

By the time you pay for the reseal job, the ferry time both ways, and the airline tickets both ways I bet it is real close to the same either way.

Most of us have to pay ferry fuel and airline tickets regardless of what we do. The choices for me boiled down to Paul Beck in MN [>600 nm], Don Maxwell in TX [>700 nm] or Wet Wingologists in FL [600-700 nm]. Bladder installation was a full 54% higher charge; if it could have been done even 400 nm closer, I'd have saved ~50 gallons roundtrip [~$300], would still have needed roundtrip transportation for myself, and spent $3500 more for the install. Your money, your choice--I went to Florida; airline tickets were $143 roundtrip, icing on the cake.

Bladders don't just weigh more and have the possibility of developing wrinkles [trapping water in the tank, or worse, between the bladder and the wing skin], they actually have to cut new holes in the top of the wing and put in new caps. So you will have two new functional caps and the two original, non-functional caps, and a paint job around the new ones that may or may not match well. Again, it's your money, you make the choice. I've not seen one that looks really good myself, but my sample size is admittedly very low.

Personally, I selected what Mooney has always used, what other manufacturers have been changing to, and what all airliners use: sealed wet wings.

[fantom]

.....O&N will provide a loaner car.....while you wait.

Jim

Hopefully that's true when you return with problems, also. No condoms (which have been known to leak) for my wings!

[fantom]

Condoms have no such guarantee

[Hank]

Just wrong information here, Hank. I have never read one report of wrinkles and trapped water in Mooney bladders, which are very small individually and seem not to be particularly prone to them. Perhaps it has happened. Perhaps not. No bigger threat, though, and probably much less, than sealed over drain holes in Mooney wet wings. More importantly, the OEM fuel caps are removed entirely during the O&N bladder modification and are not retained . They are replaced with new and superior caps with flurosilicone o-rings and stainless steel fuel filler rings, both of which are not susceptible to leaking, pitting, and deteriation as are the originals. Have you ever actually seen a Mooney bladder installation?

Jim

I've seen two Mooneys with bladders. The first one I didn't pay a lot of attention to; the second one had new gas caps in a different location, with paintwork that the applier appreciated more than the recipient.

Water in wrinkles may or may not be an issue with Mooney bladders, but it is a known bladder issue, just as heat-related degradation is a known sealant issue. Avoid bone-rattling landings, keep tanks half-full when parked, replace cap o-rings at annual, these are simple to do.

I was quoted $10K to install bladders in my C this time last year; instead, I had them stripped and resealed for $6500. The extra few hours' flying time was fun, and well worth $3500. Where else can you legally earn >$500 per hour? The opportunities are few and far between.

P.S.--I have a 7-year guarantee; bladder repairs were quoted to be ~8 hours to remove or install. I don't know the A&P who can work for 16 hours for less money than it costs me to fly the differential between PA and FL [call it an extra 8 hours' flight time at 9 gph = 72 gallons x $6 = $432 extra fuel]. That would make the A&P labor rate a mere $432/16 = $27/hr, not happening even on a lawn mower . . .

[Hank]

Thanks, Jim.

I hate to sound argumentative, but that seems to be going around lately. It is entirely possible that the paint job was where the old caps had been removed, as they were definitely relocated; I thought it was the new plate with the new caps in them. Memory always goes first, right?

At any rate, my plane is flying again after almost two months of annual & carb OH, so my mood should begin to improve. Besides, it's the holidays! Maybe I'll take her up again later this week; after all, I need to test my new cell-phone-powered engine heater switch.

[jetdriven]

I see your aileron is deflected up a bit like mine, i am going to rectify that soon. Did you get the IFR rating? I see a lot of clouds below you

[jetdriven]

Yes, I am lowering them to match the flaps at -2 degrees. I think its worth a knot. The adjustment is easy. Pull the panel from the wing, pull the bolt from the aileron horn. Loosen the jam nut and rotate the pushrod that goes from the bellcrank to the horn.

[Marauder]

The location of the fuel caps have not changed. What has changed is due to the 2005 AD a raised cap is now available. Here is the link to their website showing uninstalled prices. Anyone know if Ollie is still around?

http://www.onaircraft.com/products-services/mooney-bladders/

[DaV8or]

The location of the fuel caps have not changed. What has changed is due to the 2005 AD a raised cap is now available.

Oh! That blows. Crappy ol' 152 caps on my Mooney?! Heal no! I was leaning a little towards the bladder camp, but now... I don't think so.

Also, since no one else has brought it up so far, if you're on the fence about bladders vs. reseal, there is this to consider. If you are a fan of the wing mounted mechanical fuel gauges, then be forewarned. They are not compatible with the bladders. A small thing to consider I know, but it may push one to a decision.

[Marauder]

Flush caps are still available. The 152 caps are just an option that no one takes. Dave is right about the wing mounted mechanical fuel gauges, though. Here are pics of the aileron linkages that Byron and I got sidetracked with if anyone wants to see how to adjust their ailerons down. I talked to Ollie a couple of years ago but haven't lately.

Jim

Sorry to infer the flush caps weren't available. I still have them on mine. Anyone find a place to get new o rings? IIRC they were pretty expensive.

[John Pleisse]

Bladders add weight as KS-Mooniac mentioned, but they aren't full proof either. The can be installed incorrectly just a resealer can do a poor job. Nobody has mentioned Willmar in Minneapolis. They have (IMHO) a great process for reseals, ferry pilots who will come get the plane and they will fly to your plane onsite, anywhere in the contiental US to do warranty work. Can you limp to annual and couple a Willmar annual with a tank reseal? This would likely have a hefty price tag...very hefty, but would put your plane in renewed condition.

[rbridges]

Bladders add weight as KS-Mooniac mentioned, but they aren't full proof either. The can be installed incorrectly just a resealer can do a poor job. Nobody has mentioned Willmar in Minneapolis. They have (IMHO) a great process for reseals, ferry pilots who will come get the plane and they will fly to your plane onsite, anywhere in the contiental US to do warranty work. Can you limp to annual and couple a Willmar annual with a tank reseal? This would likely have a hefty price tag...very hefty, but would put your plane in renewed condition.

Wilmar was mentioned as early as post #'s 2 and 10.

[1964-M20E]

Yes, I'm familiar with the adjustment mechanism. I just have a feeling that it will require a bit of trial and error. I bought new (used) aileron push rods some time ago in preparation for this operation because my current starboard push rod has a rust spot at its lower most point where it exits the wing. This way I can just install my new (now restored) rods and new hardware during the annual without the risk of additional downtime while I either restore the old ones or scrounge for replacements.

Jim

Sorry for the continued digression. I changed mine on my former plane getting to the nuts and bolts on the bell crank in the wing was quite challenging. Of course if all you are doing is adjusting it is not too bad.

[David White]

Oh! That blows. Crappy ol' 152 caps on my Mooney?! Heal no! I was leaning a little towards the bladder camp, but now... I don't think so.

Also, since no one else has brought it up so far, if you're on the fence about bladders vs. reseal, there is this to consider. If you are a fan of the wing mounted mechanical fuel gauges, then be forewarned. They are not compatible with the bladders. A small thing to consider I know, but it may push one to a decision.

That actually may be a decision maker for me, because that was one of the first things I've done to the airplane. Sometime mid December my panel is getting pimpified with a 530/430/340/330 stack and a JPI. I did talk with Don Maxwell and he said that for $650 he would take at least 2 tries to get the leak fixed. I'm going to do that before I spend 7k on a reseal.

If I went to Paul Beck is he able to do the long range mod at the same time?

[aviatoreb]

If I went to Paul Beck is he able to do the long range mod at the same time?

How much is the long range mod?

[David White]

How much is the long range mod?

I read somewhere that it gives me 100 gallons useable, haven't done too much research though.

[David White]

If you are asking how much money, I've never seen a number posted. I'll get a lot more serious about it if Don Maxwell isn't able to fix it.

[David White]

Bladders add weight as KS-Mooniac mentioned, but they aren't full proof either. The can be installed incorrectly just a resealer can do a poor job. Nobody has mentioned Willmar in Minneapolis. They have (IMHO) a great process for reseals, ferry pilots who will come get the plane and they will fly to your plane onsite, anywhere in the contiental US to do warranty work. Can you limp to annual and couple a Willmar annual with a tank reseal? This would likely have a hefty price tag...very hefty, but would put your plane in renewed condition.

It only leaks if I fill it up all the way, if I leave it at tabs it doesn't leak. I'm still flying the plane, just can't take full fuel. I talked with another guy who has been flying his Mooney for a number of years like that, but I want to be able to fill it up all the way. If you fill the left tank up all the way it will dump about the first 5 gallons on the ground.

[carusoam]

A few thoughts...

(1) 100 gallons is a nice option, specially if your burn rate is 15gph....

(2) a reseal, done right, lasts until you sell the plane, a long time from now...

(3) check you W&B, can you load all 100gal with your typical payload? My M20C w/52 gal and two people aboard was near full up.

Best regards,

-a-

[aviatoreb]

If you are asking how much money, I've never seen a number posted. I'll get a lot more serious about it if Don Maxwell isn't able to fix it.

That is what I meant - how much dollars installed

[The201pilot]

If there was one thing i could change on LWJ it would be to have no bladders and long range tanks....The next mooney purchase will definately have long range tanks or the ability to change to them..LWJ does not have the full 64 gallon bladders..She's had no problems (to date) with water getting trapped.. I've had her for just about a year now with just over 180 hrs..The paint is a bit mismatched, but, in no way detracts from the overall look..