m20flyer Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi, Me again. Did a forum search on damage v. price and couldn't find an answer... Plane is advertised as having had one gear up. Digging thorugh the 337s, I found another entry in 1973 indicating a second g/u incident ("replaced belly skins", "replaced gear doors"). Given that the damage is nearly 40 years old, what would you expect the price impact be...if any? The deal: -Manual 1968 F -300smoh (Columbia Reman in 2004; Mattituck inspection post gear up in '08; not OH) -155 on new Hartzell scimitar prop (gear up, 2008) -Stec50 -Shadin FF/digital tach -Bladders (2003), 201 exhaust, one piece belly, one piece w/s (not 201) -KX155s, one G/S -Mid/High $40Ks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cruiser Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 There are those that want to discount because a plane has damage history, no matter what the current condition. The logic is that there are other planes out there for sale without damage history, so damage history demands a discount. So, if you can find a comparable plane with the same equipment and condition that is not damaged I say go for it. If not, and this is your best choice of a plane that you want and like, a 40 year old gear up just doesn't mean much does it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Gear-up damage > 10 years ago = no deduction IMO. 4 years and 155 hours ago... perhaps a slight deduction is still in order. I'd like to see the repair details, and especially the reports from the engine inspection to verify condition of the crank and case (were they NDI'd?). I've stated many times I'm not a fan of bladders, but if the candidate plane has good cosmetics then it sounds like a good price to me. I would still subject it to a good pre-purchase inspection with a Mooney-savvy mechanic or shop. Sounds like it needs a GPS, but the STEC is a very nice upgrade on a vintage Mooney, and could cost you $15k or more if you tried to add one now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20flyer Posted October 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Prebuy/annual is through Premier in FL. Engine inspection by Mattituck, no new case. Bladders appeal to me becuase they already have the 64gal fittings installed and they're relatively new. Given what's on the market, it doesn't seem like a bad deal. I'm not too worried about the GPS since I carry an iPad with charting software. I did my CFI in an F model (full 201 conv) with no fewer than six G/Us on it and it flew straight and FAST!!! I'm chalking this up to first time buyer nerves. Thanks, yet again, for the input! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregwatts Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 The fact that you are questioning the loss of value because of gear-ups is a strong indication of what you will face at resale. There is a small pool of Mooney buyers and an even smaller pool that will buy "damaged" airplanes. If you never plan on selling the plane....then it doesn't matter. I spent over 6 months and looked at many,many Mooneys because I wanted the NDH claim. The value of the airplane will be determined by what you are willing to pay. If pricepoint is the determining factor....you may have to settle for a plane with "history". The deal as you state in your post is not a bargain....in my opinion! It is a buyer's market.....so I would find the airplane that you really want and negotiate. I am not a fan of bladders.......but there are several on this forum that like them. Good luck.......! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 We're talking about half-century old planes here. Condition is everything at this point. My belief is a DH plane with good, well-documented repairs may be better than a NDH 'cherry' that's been sitting neglected for decades. If the damage occured before you bought the plane, the 'hit' to value has already been taken. But if you want NDH, keep looking until you find one; It will either be NDH or the logs will be bogus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 15, 2012 Report Share Posted October 15, 2012 Greg is correct in that the pool of potential buyers when you sell will be smaller, but the upside with a repaired gear-up plane is that the more recent the damage, the bigger the discount so theoretically you can get "more" plane (or a better bargain) and enjoy it for however many years. Say you sell in 6 years, now that damage is 10 years old instead of 4, and the deduction should be less, or even zero, at this point. Higher airframe time is a similar concern for some buyers, but we have at least two members here that have or had high-time airframes that were great planes purchased for less money. I for one wouldn't shy away from gear-up damage or high airframe time and would focus on current condition and maintenance history. A well-used and well-maintained plane with 6000 hours might be in better condition than a 2000 hr hangar queen, for example. A gear-up plane might have the desirable one-piece belly or newer/better prop vs. vintage OEM parts. So, there are two sides to the damage history coin, and the longer you plan to own one, then the greater the reason NOT to shy away from a damaged but properly repaired plane. All bets are off for shoddy workmanship, of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Roughly speaking... A low time engine is near 20k A new prop is near 10k Bladders or new seal is near 10k Stec, installed and tuned at least 10k Newish radios, compared to the airframe 5k Airframe is free.... How's the paint? Somebody has paid for many upgrades. This is possibly in the category of too good. Make sure everything is checked out in the pre-purchase inspection... PPI, It will be good money well spent. Best regards, -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 It's a no-buy for me, but if I had to quantify it......22% off book. 11% for each gear-up. Funny, the title chain is either really short or really long for gear up birds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m20flyer Posted October 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Why a "no-buy?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1964-M20E Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 IMOH current condition, avionics, how the plane runs and how it flies are more important than damage 40 years or 10 years ago that has been fixed corrrectly. Yes check to make sure it has been fixed correclty and if it has then do not worry about it nad base your decision on what the plane is worth to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KSMooniac Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Why a "no-buy?" N4352H has stated on previous threads here that he would never consider any plane with any type of damage history, so he clearly falls in the segment of the population that wouldn't look at your candidate plane if/when you sell it down the road. Just an example of the smaller pool of potential buyers. Nothing wrong with that philosophy, but it differs from mine. Finding a 30-50 year old plane with NDH is becoming harder and harder, and if you must have one, you might find yourself shopping for years instead of buying an otherwise great plane and enjoying it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 A 40 year old gear up wouldn't concern me too much if a good pre-buy can't find any issues. Granted, an identical plane with no gear up and same price, I'd pick it. edit--I see the latest gear up was 155 hours ago. I'd be a little uneasy about that. I'm not very knowledgeable about these repairs. I'd need a very reputable person to convince me everything is good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oscar Avalle Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 It is hard to find a M20C in pristine conditions and with no damage history. So I would just make sure that everything is OK and enjoy your bird. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Search for George Perry's excellent thread on what to look for before purchasing a Vintage Mooney. Lots and lots of detail. Personally, a properly-repaired gear up wouldn't scare me away. My plane had one 4 years before I bought it. Visit Jimmy Garrison's site for a valuation app, or look for the Mooney Newsletter that has a link to it. There's nothing like a low-time engine, new prop, one-piece belly, etc. Condition is everything! Maintenance history and status. You don't want a hangar queen, 40 years old with 2000 TTAF as that would be 50 hours a year. Guaranteed that in the 60s and 70s it flew twice that or more, so there are lots of years with no flying. The immediate three-year use and maintenance history is the most important to me, as that will give you a good idea of how well everything should work. Ten hours a year and one-day annuals are really bad for good airplanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Gear ups are great!! You usually get a new prop without recurrent ADs, a one piece belly and a fresh engine. Ask a knowledgable MSC about gear ups. They'll tell you that the repair is incredibly simple and straight forward. They have no doubt done dozens. The good thing about a gear up is, the gear is up. All the tricky mechanical stuff is safely tucked away and in perfect working order. The rest is sheetmetal, not far off from changing a fender on a car. The only tricky parts are the flaps and the boarding step (if it has one) and like I said, it's all been done a zillion times before. Sadly for me, my plane had it's gear up before the advent of the one piece belly, so I didn't get one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jetdriven Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 If you have two identical 1968 M20F's sitting on the ramp for sale and one has a 30-yr old gear up, all other things exactly equal, the gear-up airplane could demand a 500-1000$ deduction. It is strictly a marketing issue. Now, to find two identical 1968 M20F's for sale at the same airport... Note there are plenty of buyers for gear-up airplanes. Ours was on its belly in 2001. I wear a parachute in case the wing falls off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thinwing Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 speaking of parachutes...with 250 jumps to my name ,I can not think of a worse airplane to jump out of....LOL k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 You'll need to saw off the door to get out of mine in the air, assuming you can't fit through a 2" wide gap. . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry 5TJ Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 Gear ups are great!! You usually get a new prop without recurrent ADs, a one piece belly and a fresh engine. Ask a knowledgable MSC about gear ups. They'll tell you that the repair is incredibly simple and straight forward. Good point - a gear-up should a minor damage issue in a Vintage M20s. Make sure it was not a gear collapse, as that bends the pushrods and the damage is usually worse than a gear-up landing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbridges Posted October 16, 2012 Report Share Posted October 16, 2012 If you have two identical 1968 M20F's sitting on the ramp for sale and one has a 30-yr old gear up, all other things exactly equal, the gear-up airplane could demand a 500-1000$ deduction. It is strictly a marketing issue. Now, to find two identical 1968 M20F's for sale at the same airport... Note there are plenty of buyers for gear-up airplanes. Ours was on its belly in 2001. I wear a parachute in case the wing falls off. mine also had a gear up around 2500 hours ago. No problem in decades and hasn't been mentioned during any annuals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 If you have two identical 1968 M20F's sitting on the ramp for sale and one has a 30-yr old gear up, all other things exactly equal, the gear-up airplane could demand a 500-1000$ deduction. It is strictly a marketing issue. IIRC, Jimmy Garrison doesn't deduct anything for a gear up older than 10 years. In the end, it's just another talking point, just like any other feature, or lack of feature on a plane. One guy may walk away from a plane with DH and another may walk away from a plane with NDH, but lacks a GPS with WAAS. The latter was me as a buyer. I cared way more about avionics and mods than damage history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaV8or Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 speaking of parachutes...with 250 jumps to my name ,I can not think of a worse airplane to jump out of....LOL k Makes one really think about the Mooney test pilots way back in the day! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 It's been said (can't recall where or when- I read too many periodicals) that the average marketing time for a gear-up bird is 6-8 months longer than advertised NDH. This shouldn't be the case for Mooneys, because they withstand gear-ups better than most other makes. Likewise, log entries can be more concealing. The problem is, when considering short bodies, your likely buyer is a step-up Cherokee or Skyhawk driver, inexperienced in complex purchase and ownership. They often have non-Mooney persons whispering in their ear, "avoid damage history aircraft". So yes, marketing time is the enitre issue. Quantify your purchase as such. What is your time worth? How long can you hemorrhage making a payment you can no longer make? What if you get burned on the engine or tanks/bladders in addition to DH devaluation? It's more than just a few thousand dollars. I also beleive gear ups for long bodies are more problematic. The value swing is more significant. Additionally, many involve a tail strike. Personally, I think this would be of great concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted October 17, 2012 Report Share Posted October 17, 2012 Does anyone know of a long body with a gear up? We have seen a few get lost in the last couple of years. I don't recall any gear ups... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.