Cracked Cylinder

[Seth]

Did 2 cylinders fall in the AD range, and 4 didn't? You can certainly run a mixed bag of cylinders, but if you bought 6 new ones at overhaul I wouldn't trust those other 4 and would insist on giving them back to ECI for full credit, plus your expenses. Be assertive.

Scott-

None of the cylinders were in the AD range. These were continental cylinders overhauled by ECI and treated with the nickel finish. I am not sure if these were the original cylinders that came with the engine or were simply overhaueld cyliners purchased. These were installed on the engine in 2007.

-Seth

[Seth]

I would replace all 6 'while you're at it'. You are going to have to break in the new cylinders anyway, as this is critical to their performance. All the pre-disassembly will have been done. You will feel confident in you engine! I'm not a big believer in 'new and improved' unless there is a lot of data that it is indeed 'improved'. I used TCM cylinders when I did my top end last year. Took the time to break them in. I fill up w 8 quarts, no oil on the belly, use 1 qt in 30 hrs, and the oil never turns black. Oh yea, oil temp dropped by 20 degrees.

Thanks for the suggestion. I had broken in the cylinders from the overhaul pretty well I thought until #2 acted up that caused this whole issue. I was burning very little oil (similar to your range, not quite as good - about one quart every 25 hours or so), and if I put in more than about 10.5 quarts, it would spit it out, the engine likes 10 to 10.75 quarts of oil).

For all I know the other four cylinders are fine - as they have high 70s compression. However, it may make sense to just put the new cylinders in now as each cylinder if it was from the original run has about 1600 hours TT now (300 since cylinder overhaul, 100 since inspection and replacement of valves, etc . . ., when they overhaueld the engine). If they were not from my engine originally, then I don't know the TT hours on them but the 300 and 100 are the same.

The two cylinders already removed are #2 and #4. If the right side of the engine, #1, #3, and #5 are not touched, then maybe I'll replace #6 whiile I'm at it, and then leave the other side for when an issue may occur in the future, and then take care of that side at that time - which may or may not occur for a long period of time. If #2 is a covered warrenty cost since the cylinder blew less than a year a 100 hours since overhaul, they'll probably give me the cost of an overhauled cylinder (since that what it was) and the labor for replacement (that's what I'm thinking - we'll find out). However, I'm replacing the #4 cylnider as well (maybe selling the curren #4 since it is okay with compressions in the 60s) and maybe #6 since it's the same side as long as all the equipment is stripped and off at this time.

It just kills me that for a few thousand more I could have had new cylinders last year vs thinking the cylinders were pretty fresh. Again, my fault for not digging deep enough. To replace two cylinders will cost me between probably $2,000 and $4,000 once I figure out which cylinders I'm installing and what the warrenty will cover. For the other four, I'm probably looking at $5000 to $7000 for a total of $7000 to $11000 for the entire job (guestimates added in my mind, not hard facts yet). Not what I wanted 11 months since paying for a full overhaul. But I don't want to spend less now to pay more again so quickly.

What in your opinion is the useful life of a cylinder after it is has been overhauled at 1300 hours and then checked at 1500 hours (200 since cylinder overhaul)?

I'll speak with multiple mechanics and offers from Bolduc on the warrenty work, my MSC, the people at GAI working on the plane, and ECI tomorrow and will have more information as to their reccomendations and will discuss where I'm leaning (and I don't mean LOP or ROP).

Take care,

-Seth

[Seth]

WHat a disaster with mixed cylinders so soon from OH. I an with Scott, go check on BT and ask then what to do. Continental 520s are their thing.

I signed up tonight and will ready through the information once I'm "approved" by their modorator.

[Parker_Woodruff]

Replace all 6 for confidence in the engine.

I know a TSIO-360 owner that buys Continental cylinders and sends them all out for rework before they even go on his airplane.

Rough spot to be. But as Scott said, I'd hate to be stuck away from home at the mercy of an unknown, To-be-determined by necessity shop.

[ProprAire]

Seth,

Thanks for the good words on my return to flight. I wish you well as you resolve this issue.

Cheers!

Dan

[Seth]

I got onto BeechTalk and I must admit - they do know a lot about the IO-520 and IO-550. Well worth the reading of certain experiences. Thank you for the suggestion. We collectively have quite the Mooney knowledge here on MooneySpace but BeachTalk does have a lot of good experience and knowledge as well. I prefer my Mooney

As for my cylinders: Update:

The Top Overhaul performed in 2007 used off the shelf overhauled continentl cylinders by ECI. I'm highly considering replacing all cylinders at this time as I do not know the time on each cylinder even though the four with high 70s compression show no signs of issues - as mentioned, I do not want to get stuck somewhere away from home base when I could have avoided it, or at least had the work and my displacement paid for by a warrenty.

I'll post more tomorrow once my decision is made as Bolduc has made a fascinating offer to try to help me out since they do realize that I probably should have replaced all cyliders during overhaul and they want to stand by their overhualed engine. I'll explain more tomorrow once I have one final talk with Bolduc.

Take care,

-Seth

[Seth]

Resolution:

I am replacing all six cylinders with new Superior Millenium cylinders.

The engine overhaul shop is going above and beyond in my opinion. Even though it was not thier fault entirely that the overhaueld cylinders were used - had I know they were overhauled, I would have put new cylidners on at the time of overhaul. Should they have noticed that the Cylinders were nickel plated continentals which could not have come from the factory that way, yes. Was it easy to not that when the order said simply to check for inspection? Maybe. It's a learning process and now they know to find out if cylinders are going to be reused to suggest using new cylinders or to prove that they are indeed only 200 hours old (not 200 hours since overhaul but what total time).

We are taking the 100 hour old new valve assemblys that were installed at overhaul and using those with new sub assembly cylinders for the two cylinders that had issues. Bodluc is taking care of that for me.

We are splitting the reduced cost of doing the same thing to the other four cylinders that did not show issues . . . yet - the experts who I spoke to all said to just go ahead and put on new cylinders at this point since the cylidners on the engine were indeed overhaueld and not first run. I may not have an issue for hundreds of hours, but this way I'd have confidence in the engine again.

So 2 cylinder covered

4 cyliners at reduced cost

Reusing the 100 hour brand new vavle assemblies

I'm okay with that. In the end, 6 new cylinders.

So another break in is in the near future, but then I'll have six cylinders under warrenty. I am covering the labor cost of my mechanics at Gaithersburg. Bolduc took care of the broken cylinders and are giving me a very nice deal on the four others. I felt this was fair. Bolduc stood by their work and helped out a client that was misinformed.

Not a perfect ending, but not the worst case scenario either.

I expect break in to occur sometime around 10/18/12. Also, this is now the longest the engie has sat not running since the engine was overhauled.

-Seth

[KSMooniac]

Sounds like a great outcome and fair resolution for both you and the shop. I think in 6 months you'll be really happy, and 6 years from now you won't even remember the extra cost. I don't recall how you broke in your cylinders, but would recommend you check Beechtalk and follow their current guidelines. Hopefully that won't re-start the debate over here.

[jackn]

Sounds like good solution. Break em in hard! Keep em cool. Your going to have a great plane. My brother lives in Gaithersburg(actually near Damascus, but I fly into GAI), I'd like to see your plane sometime when I'm down visiting.

[Lionudakis]

I've field overhauled a few engines in the last few years, of which all the cylinders from eci have ad's against them now requiring repetitive comp checks every 25-50 hrs (forget which) for cracks, and life limited to well under the hours you'd hope to get from modern manufactured 'certified' jugs. Seems quality on parts is going down not up. I'm on spinner # 3 in 1.5 yrs, which replaced the 50 year old one.

[AcclaimML]

late to this thread, but Seth I think you did the best thing (the safest thing). Going through the top overhaul myself. Like the research you did, I cam to the same conclusion that start off new rather than an overhauled part that you have no way of knowing how old it is 1000 or 3000 hours on it. Good luck and hope the breakin goes well.

[Seth]

UPDATE: The good news: The cylinders arrived this morning to my home airport for installation. Again, we used the valve assemblies that were brand new from the overhaul on new Millenium Cylinders. They are in great shape and are being installed.

The bad news: The box was damaged during shipping and one of the cylinders was damaged. There is an obivous hole in the box and a cylinder head was bashed in and the cooling fins bent up and down around the impact point.

The good news: Bolduc is overnighting a brand new cylinder and will take the matter up with UPS. Break in flight is scheduled for Friday.

What a mess of an ordeal, but I have new cylinders that I am confident in already.

Take care,

-Seth

[1964-M20E]

Seth

good luck and hope to hear you flying soon.

[Seth]

Thanks John and I'm looking forard to seeing pictures of your new bird - nice paint job by the way.

-Seth