PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 What's really depressing is that we are our own worst enemy and we never learn. Aircraft ownership carries with it significant expense. As owners we shell out thousands and thousands to annual, maintain and upgrade our airplanes. When these same owners become sellers all that goes out the window! Suddenly the excuses begin: the market is soft, there are other airplanes selling for less, etc etc on and on. Take the example of engine expense. Is the market ever soft for Lycoming come engine time? It seems that engine costs have steadily increased. Are they ever affected by the "soft market?" They set their price and we pay it! Sellers need to do the same. Stop the excuses and the apologies. Do the math and realize the value in your airplane and that no two airplanes are the same. Set your price accordingly and stick to it. Quote
danb35 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: allsmiles Sellers need to do the same. Stop the excuses and the apologies. Do the math and realize the value in your airplane and that no two airplanes are the same. Set your price accordingly and stick to it. Quote
Antoni Deighton Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Allsmiles - It's not as easy as that. First of all, sellers are as different as the airplanes they are selling. Some own their airplanes outright, while others are paying them off. Some need the cash, while others can afford to wait. Sometimes the market is flooded with aircraft and buyers have a wide choice of planes thus lowering prices, and at other times airplanes are scarce and people will pay a premium to have it now. Simply holding out for the right price is not a realistic answer to a very complicated set of decisions. As for Lycoming, well they have the advantage that they are selling a product. By and large, one factory IO360 certified to fit in a Mooney 201 is much like another off the Lycoming production line. If you have decided a factory engine is what you need, you have but one supplier. If you want to increase the prices of used airplanes and reduce the prices of engines (and possibly new airplanes as well), you need to dramatically increase the pool of airplane owners. That means increasing the number of pilots. If you have a solution to that problem, then please share it with us. Unfortunately the market that existed in the late seventies with new Cessnas costing just double the price of a good car (about $80K in today's money) are long gone, along with the pilots that fueled it. Quote
gregwatts Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: danb35 ...and be willing to not sell the plane. The truth is that a seller can no more unilaterally set a sale price than a buyer can. Consequently, if nobody is willing to pay what I'm asking, I'm asking more than the plane is worth. Pricing a depreciating asset too high is a double whammy--not only do you end up hanging on to it for longer than you'd like to, its value continues to decline during that time. By the time you finally do sell it, you sell it for less than you could have at first if you'd priced it reasonably. Quote
PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: danb35 ...and be willing to not sell the plane. The truth is that a seller can no more unilaterally set a sale price than a buyer can. Consequently, if nobody is willing to pay what I'm asking, I'm asking more than the plane is worth. Pricing a depreciating asset too high is a double whammy--not only do you end up hanging on to it for longer than you'd like to, its value continues to decline during that time. By the time you finally do sell it, you sell it for less than you could have at first if you'd priced it reasonably. Quote
M016576 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Like all things: an aircraft is worth whatever someone will pay for it... That, and what someone once said to me: the perfect deal occurs when both the seller and buyer walk away feeling cheated.... Quote
M016576 Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: GeorgePerry Job if your talking about the missile in FL I've been watching that one too. I spoke with the owner when he first put it on the market and I offered (alittle less but very close to) what he's asking now. He's not a motivated seller. I figure by the time I'm finished with my overseas tour of duty it'll still be for sale. Maybe I'll make another offer:-) Quote
PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: ad8n Allsmiles - It's not as easy as that. If you want to increase the prices of used airplanes and reduce the prices of engines (and possibly new airplanes as well), you need to dramatically increase the pool of airplane owners. That means increasing the number of pilots. If you have a solution to that problem, then please share it with us. Unfortunately the market that existed in the late seventies with new Cessnas costing just double the price of a good car (about $80K in today's money) are long gone, along with the pilots that fueled it. Quote
rob Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: allsmiles It's not easy but needs to happen! I don't want to increase the pool of airplane (Mooney) owners. I want owners who can afford the luxury and priviledge of aircraft ownership. Let me ask you something, driving down the highway how many 911's do you see? How many Toyota Camries? What's the difference? More people can afford a Camry but you don't see Porsche lowering prices to sell more do you? What makes you think a Mooney should be any different? Quote
Antoni Deighton Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: allsmiles It's not easy but needs to happen! I don't want to increase the pool of airplane (Mooney) owners. I want owners who can afford the luxury and priviledge of aircraft ownership. Let me ask you something, driving down the highway how many 911's do you see? How many Toyota Camries? What's the difference? More people can afford a Camry but you don't see Porsche lowering prices to sell more do you? What makes you think a Mooney should be any different? Quote
KSMooniac Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: rob Any item is worth whatever the seller and buyer agree upon. It's that simple. Quote
PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: ad8n It's not easy but needs to happen! I don't want to increase the pool of airplane (Mooney) owners. I want owners who can afford the luxury and priviledge of aircraft ownership. Let me ask you something, driving down the highway how many 911's do you see? How many Toyota Camries? What's the difference? More people can afford a Camry but you don't see Porsche lowering prices to sell more do you? What makes you think a Mooney should be any different? Quote
PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 Quote: KSMooniac Any item is worth whatever the seller and buyer agree upon. It's that simple. Quote
johnggreen Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 If I may referee for a minute, you guys are beginning to split hairs AND YOU KNOW IT. If you want to sell, you are completely subject to the existing market. Beyond that, there is no limit to the rationalizations, "what ifs" and "but fors". Now, the one thing that has not been said and (the factor that is the most important) is: (Drum roll please) financing. We will probably all agree that 95% of the potential buyers of a J are going to finance. I'm not a banker, but I deal with them continuously. Thankfully now, mostly in the interest of 3rd parties who are trying to finance a business, or inventory, or equipment, or land that I am trying to lease or sell them. When the potential buyer goes to the bank or other financial institution, the first thing they are going to pull is VREF or Bluebook. I will treat you all with the respect you are probably due and not detail where it goes from there in pricing. Also, i don't want to in any way disparage the very fine J model in question by ripping into it's finance value as a potential lender would. I'm just saying that I'm there almost everyday and financing is a different world than it was four years ago. And ! the environment four years ago is probably exactly why we are here. So, "don't overlook the obvious" is all that I'm saying. OK, everybody into the middle of the ring for another round. Jgreen Quote
John Pleisse Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 My AC is closest to your aircraft in terms of vintage, TT, avionics and engine. Likewise, I have seen your plane, met you in person and think the world of you, Tom. $118-127k...this would be the high end.....the same painful reality I would face. Nice bird.... but at the end of the day, we can only get so much for an $87k plane. Quote
Antoni Deighton Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 John, I agree with you 100%. If you go back and look at my earlier post, you will see that I mentioned financing as one of the variables. Antoni Quote
PTK Posted July 30, 2012 Report Posted July 30, 2012 I respect your opinion John. I submit to you that the ability of a buyer to obtain financing and the bank's opinions have no bearing on the value of the aircraft. The seller is not bound by the bank. The bank wants its exposure minimized and serves the buyer. It's up to the buyer to find the money if he can afford it. If not don't waste the seller's time. Quote
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