Dwb62 Posted January 26 Report Posted January 26 I am having IRAN replacing camshaft and lifters due to corrosion from setting to much and not flying enough, previous owner. After break in with mineral oil, what oil is preferred for normal operation? I do plan on using Camguard, I was using XC 20w-50 I was thinking about Phillips Victory what do you guys recommend.
hammdo Posted January 26 Report Posted January 26 Do the XC 20w50 and 10% Phillips 20w50 anti-corrosion - no cam guard for a while. Make sure to get the DLC lifters… I have ~60 hours since IRAN and now do Victory and Phillips Anti-Corrosion… I went through this last year on my C… -Don
PT20J Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 I have a factory rebuilt IO-360-A3B6 with about 600 hours on it. I have run Philips XC20W-50 with Camguard in it since break in. It gets about 10-12 hours per quart of oil and has compressions in the high 70s. It has roller lifters from the factory, but if I were getting a field overhaul or IRAN I would put in DLC lifters. This engine has stuck a valve and been reamed twice. There is apparently some talk in the Cirrus world that Camguard may promote valve sticking. I don't see why it would, but it is not designed to prevent it either, and valve sticking is a known issue for Lycomings. So, I am switching to Avblend as there is some evidence from the tests they did with Enstrom helicopters to get FAA approval that it may help with valve sticking. I also have a friend that used to be DOM at a flight school that had problems with valve sticking in Cessnas and he told me that when they started using Avblend the valve sticking ceased. So, I'm giving it a try. The Victory oil includes the LW-16702 additive which is designed to help prevent lifter spalling because it prevents scuffing under extreme pressures. It is not a general corrosion preventative and shouldn't be necessary with DLC or roller lifters. 1
McMooney Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 I've used aeroshell 15w50 for the last 6 or 700 hours, seems to work well. currently using about 1 quart every 10 to 15 hours so not bad all compressions normal. unfortunately, i don't believe there's anyone who can tell you what's best. there was an article a few years back, unfortunately i can't remember where but the gist was long as it's a reputable brand and you don't let it sit for years at a time, you're ok. 1
Dwb62 Posted January 27 Author Report Posted January 27 2 hours ago, hammdo said: Do the XC 20w50 and 10% Phillips 20w50 anti-corrosion - no cam guard for a while. Make sure to get the DLC lifters… I have ~60 hours since IRAN and now do Victory and Phillips Anti-Corrosion… I went through this last year on my C… -Don I take it that you are referring to their anti-rust 20w-50 , thanks
AndreiC Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 For what it's worth, here is my experience. Before having my Mooney, for 20+ years I have had Piper Cherokees with Lycoming O320 or O360 engines. I always used Aeroshell 15W50 because that's what I was taught during my training. Never had any issues and my last engine was running strong when I sold the plane at 1750 hours SMOH. About a year after buying the Mooney I visited Poplar Grove Airmotive (well known engine builders), and they scoffed at my use of Aeroshell. They said that many relatively recent tests showed that it is not up to par, and that Phillips XC 20W50 is better. So I've switched to it, and so far it seems to be fine (but as I said before, in my previous 1400 hours with Aeroshell I never had an issue either). 1
Marc_B Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 https://aviationconsumer.com/uncategorized/14-day-oil-shootout/ Things go back and forth. The two seeming truths are change oil frequently and don’t let the aircraft sit idle. FWIW I use aeroshell 15w50. 1
DCarlton Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 I read all the opinions and articles a few years ago. Decided to not overthink it. Went with Phillips Victory. Satisfied. 1
Fritz1 Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 I have used Shell 15W50 for many years without any issues, like the color of the can, a couple of years ago my A&P IA told me it causes valve sticking in Lycoming Engines, switched to W100 Plus, always preheat below 40F, lots of people and shops that I spoke to swear by the Phillips XC, had a long phone call with a Phillips engineer and he sold it to me, running XC Victory for 200h now, no valve sticking, oil consumption about 7-8h for the the quart, the W100 Plus burned at a rate of about 5h/qt, when I switched to Phillips I immediately realized the oily bottom plugs that I had seen from the Shell W100 were a thing of the past, my hunch is, and I do not have any proof, that the Phillips filled up the valve guides to some extent, no sticking yet, everybody besides my A&P IA assures me that the valve guides will never stick from the Phillips, he ran a fleet of Robinson helicopters with Lycoming engines for while and swears that anything but W100 will get their valves stuck eventually, let's see, like the Phillips XC, if I ever sense valves getting stuck I will switch back to the W100 at least for two oil changes in summer, so a lot of subjectivity, anybody got hard evidence and test results, W100 - Phillips XC regarding valve sticking? 1
Slick Nick Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 Aeroshell 15-50 here. No camguard as where I live the climate is extremely dry, and I fly a lot. About 200h a year. Oil changes at every 40-50 hours, and oil analysis comes back exceptionally clean every time. My engine is high time too, I plan to run it well past TBO if all continues to be clean.
MikeOH Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 Been running Shell W100+ for eight years; previous owner did too, but not sure for how long (he owned the plane for 13 years). Burns 1 quart every 6 to 7 hours. Around 2700 hours on the engine. 2
gabez Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 Shell W100+, 10 year/900hrs on the bottom and 150 on the top. I do oil changes every 25 hrs. Burn 1 qt every 8-9 hrs (give or take)
kortopates Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 I'll share our Savvy recommendations. The only oil we actively recommend against is Aeroshell 15W-50 since its a semi-synthetic and although we can't wait to use synthetic oils after we get rid of the lead in our fuel, for the time being with with leaded fuel, we recommend sticking to 100% mineral oil based products. Secondly, if you can, any straight weight pure mineral weight oils are preferable including Shell and Phillips. But those that need a multi-weight (as recommended for most turbo engines) we recommend Phillips 66 X/C 20W50. For best corrosion prevention we recommend adding Camguard. The Victory oil is the Phillips with the Lycoming anti-scuffing agent LW-16702 added, which is required by a few Lycoming engines; but none of which are used in Mooney's. It not an anti-corrosion additive. Phillips does also make a anti-rust preservative oil, an oil formulated to protect aircraft piston engines from rust and corrosion during extended periods of inactivity. It can be used for break-in but is not meant to flown on for more than 10 hour. Phillips has recommended using 10% anti-rust oil as anti-corrosion additive but we prefer Camguard as the premium anti-corrosion additive. The number one killer of aircraft engines is corrosion. And one of the best things you can do for your engine is to replace the oil & filter every 25-35 hrs or 3 months - which ever comes first. 2
Dwb62 Posted January 27 Author Report Posted January 27 42 minutes ago, kortopates said: I'll share our Savvy recommendations. The only oil we actively recommend against is Aeroshell 15W-50 since its a semi-synthetic and we although we can't wait to use synthetic oils after we get ride of the lead in our fuel, for the time being with with leaded fuel we recommend sticking to 100% mineral oil based products. Secondly, if you can, any straight pure mineral weight oils are preferable including Shell and Phillips. But those that need a multi-weight (as recommended for most turbo engines) we recommend Phillips 66 X/C 20W50. For best corrosion prevention we recommend adding Camguard. The Victory oil is the Phillips with the Lycoming anti-scuffing agent LW-16702 added, which is required by a few Lycoming engines; but none of which are used in Mooney's. It not an anti-corrosion additive. Phillips does also make a anti-rust preservative oil, an oil formulated to protect aircraft piston engines from rust and corrosion during extended periods of inactivity. It can be used for break-in but is not meant to flown on for more than 10 hour. Phillips has recommended using 10% anti-rust oil as anti-corrosion additive but we prefer Camguard as the premium anti-corrosion additive. The number one killer of aircraft engines is corrosion. And one of the best things you can do for your engine is to replace the oil & filter every 25-35 hrs or 3 months - which ever comes first. Thanks for the information, appreciate it.
Max Clark Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 46 minutes ago, kortopates said: The only oil we actively recommend against is Aeroshell 15W-50 Lol of course - that's probably the only oil that's ever been used in my engine.
AndreiC Posted January 27 Report Posted January 27 About the straight weight oil: I generally change my oil once in November and once in April. Temps around here range -15*F - +70*F Nov-Apr and 35*F-85*F Apr-Nov. If I were to switch to straight weight oils from the 20W50 I use now, what weights should I use in winter vs summer?
Marc_B Posted January 28 Report Posted January 28 22 hours ago, kortopates said: The only oil we actively recommend against is Aeroshell 15W-50 since its a semi-synthetic @kortopates I certainly understand that conventional oil suspends lead better than synthetic. But I'm always curious if the oil change interval is 25-35 hours, how much saturation would be reached in semi-synthetic scavenging by that time? When I purchased my aircraft I picked up at Top Gun in Stockton and asked Mark Rouch if I should switch to Phillips XC + camguard and he said no. Sounds like I'm another engine that's only been run with Aeroshell after breakin as is @Max Clark above. My guess is if you fly frequently and change your oil every 25 hours, it probably matters much less which oil you use... But if you don't fly frequently and change oil infrequently, then it becomes more and more important to "optimize" every little quirk (i.e. add camguard, only use conventional oil, etc.). It also makes sense that a recommendation to use XC20W50 would come with a recommendation for Camguard as Philips doesn't have the corrosion inhibitor additives like Aeroshell does. I think that was also confirmed by AviationConsumer that Aeroshell 15W50 had much better corrosion prevention testing than Phillips XC20W50. I think Aeroshell was also a better lubricant than Phillips. Probably Phillips + Camguard gets at least similar (or better) corrosion prevention to Aeroshell with more conventional oil and potentially better lead scavenging? I'm curious if Savvy makes a distinction of turbocharged vs NA with that recommendation. I'm also curious if this recommendation against Aeroshell is based on testing vs just a general recommendation against synthetic oil use with leaded fuel? (certainly aware of fully synthetic issues with engine damage/sludging) So my perception is that for aircraft that don't fly frequently Phillips XC20W50 PLUS Camguard may give the "optimized" defense against sludging and corrosion. FWIW, I always change my oil based on hrs flown and fly enough that this is never more than 2-3 months between changes. Typically see a change in color of the oil (progressive darkening around the ~15-20 hour mark.
kortopates Posted January 28 Report Posted January 28 54 minutes ago, Marc_B said: I'm curious if Savvy makes a distinction of turbocharged vs NA with that recommendation. No Mike likes straight weight mineral oil for turbo's same as NA engines. However, its the Turbo airframe POH's that will recommend using multi-weight because the multi-weight oil's viscosity will change less as temperature changes which translates to more stable automatic wastegate performance with less tendency to overboost with cold oil and under boost with warm oil. Mike though would rather have the better corrosion protection of straight weight oil and is less concerned about MAP variation. I on the other hand prioritize minimizing MAP variations use the multi-weight oil. Its a trade-off. Otherwise, Mike only recommends multi-weight oils for those that need to do colder starts without pre-heat. Here is some more detail on why he actively discourages the synthetic oil: The one oil that we actively discourage our clients from using is the semi-synthetic multigrade oil Aeroshell 15W-50. This oil has a number of problems: Poor anti-corrosion properties. History of producing high copper readings in oil analysis. History of aggravating TCM starter adapter slippage. History of aggravating oil leaks. All these symptoms are caused by the synthetic PAO (polyalpholefin) that makes up 50% of Aeroshell 15W-50. PAO works fine in automotive engines that have very low blow-by and operate on unleaded fuel. For piston aircraft engines that run on highly leaded fuel, we don't like the stuff. Mineral-based oils without synthetics work much better. For all the other details and his recommendation to stick to 100% mineral oil with Camguard see his most recent guidance on oils and oil changing here: 1
GeeBee Posted January 28 Report Posted January 28 Aeroshell claims a mineral based multi-viscosity oil may lose required viscosity due to shear in particular when the engine is cold where as a semi-synthetic will not lose viscosity during cold starts. They acknowledge the issue of lead absorption but believe there is adequate mineral product to absorb the lead. Here is their view, biased I will admit, but none the less properly states the engineering trade offs. From my point of view the whole purpose of use a multi-viscosity is cold start and a semi-synthetic does that better than mineral multi-viscosity. I will also say my engine runs cooler on Aeroshell 15W-50 than any other oil. I have run it in big block Continentals for several thousand hours, in fleet use and the engines reached TBO easily including Turbo-Twin Cessnas. https://www.shell.com/business-customers/aviation/aeroshell/knowledge-centre/technical-talk/multigrades-part-2.html
PT20J Posted January 29 Report Posted January 29 Seems that every manufacturer of oil, gas or additives has data showing why their approach is best. 4
TheAv8r Posted January 29 Report Posted January 29 I use Philips XC 20W50 with Camguard in my Mooney, but am honestly of the mind that the priority order is: Fly the airplane weekly Change the oil at least every 30 hours Change the oil when it's 4 months old Anti-corrosion additive when it's sitting Oil type If you fly it regularly and change it frequently, the actual oil type doesn't really matter much. 1
Dwb62 Posted January 29 Author Report Posted January 29 14 minutes ago, TheAv8r said: I use Philips XC 20W50 with Camguard in my Mooney, but am honestly of the mind that the priority order is: Fly the airplane weekly Change the oil at least every 30 hours Change the oil when it's 4 months old Anti-corrosion additive when it's sitting Oil type If you fly it regularly and change it frequently, the actual oil type doesn't really matter much. Thanks, I would like to fly it every week but sometimes that’s hard do, I am thinking about getting a dehumidifier like drybot to keep the internal moisture down , that’s what destroyed this cam and lifters
GeeBee Posted January 29 Report Posted January 29 1 hour ago, PT20J said: Seems that every manufacturer of oil, gas or additives has data showing why their approach is best. As we all know engineering is always a compromise and lubrication engineering is no exception. I think both manufacturers present good reasons to choose their product but neither is a Hobson's choice. Fundamentally, our two choices here is lead absorption or viscosity loss on startup. I'm comfortable with the limitations on lead absorption of a semi-synthetic even in a small sump engine because I change oil frequently and I operate LOP which means much less lead (3642ppm vs 6641ppm fleet average). I'm less comfortable with loss of viscosity and shear protection on a cold engine because start up is where most wear occurs until hydrodynamics take over and I have no control over loss of viscosity and shear protection unlike lead absorption. If I were to change my routine to ROP operation I would likely choose Phillips over Aeroshell or maybe just go to straight grade oil and the limitations it presents. 2
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