Mooney spins and stalls

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

2. It went very nearly inverted during the "incipient" portion before stabilizing in a nice nose low spin.  I think the Mooney is likely to do similar and be eye opening.

C150s and C172s spin like that.   They roll pretty much inverted when entering the spin.   It's a lot of fun. 

Like this:
 

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

 

When I was young I used to go spin the 150s a lot because I thought it was fun.   When I inadvertently spun my Mooney (because I was stupid), it rolled upside down just like a C150 and then headed straight down, just like a C150.   It felt really familiar, so recovery was nearly muscle memory, even though it'd been decades since I did it in a C150.

2 hours ago, Schllc said:

Maybe I am missing something, but why would one go out and practice stalling the aircraft?

When my Mooney spun it just felt familiar, because I'd practiced it a lot for fun in other airplanes that behave similarly.   Who knows what might have happened if that hadn't been the case.

 

[Justin Schmidt]

7 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Who knows what might have happened if that hadn't been the case.

Britches get a little heavy, think i have permanent heart damage from the hard fast beating. I was a solo student,  no real world spin experience just book. 

Clarification i didn't really soil myself, an audio recording would have been fun

[midlifeflyer]

Kind of a tangent, but simulation can give a small idea of the looks of a spin. One day, after som instrument currency work, on a lark, I decided to see if a Redbird TD2 did “normal” spin and recovery. 

[Schllc]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

When I was young I used to go spin the 150s a lot because I thought it was fun.

We spun the 172’s quite a bit when I first started. We even broke a few gyros, and when the flight school said we would have to pay if it happened again we stopped.  I have flown aerobatics several times, in warbirds, citabria, aerobats. I enjoy the tossing and turning, and g’s.  I am not intimidated or fearful of stalls or slow flight. 
Shortly after when I got my ovation to finish the ppl, I had read enough here about Mooney spins that I had no desire to try. 
I also, either because of where I fly, or perhaps how, seem to always have the challenge of too much speed.  I can’t recall a time where I found myself slow with it being 100% intentional. 

I do not visit uncontrolled fields very frequently, and atc in south Florida seems to prefer slam dunking me from cruise altitude 90% of the time so I’m always trying to figure out how to slow down enough to use flaps or gear. 
That being said, I’ve read enough compelling reasons that suggest some practice is warranted, and hope to never find myself lacking of things to learn. 

[Schllc]

26 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Kind of a tangent, but simulation can give a small idea of the looks of a spin. One day, after som instrument currency work, on a lark, I decided to see if a Redbird TD2 did “normal” spin and recovery. 

When I went to IFR 6 to finish my IR they had one they used extensively. 
I spent hours in the “sim cirrus”, doing loops, rolls, stalls and all sorts of things you would never try in real life. It was hugely effective in illustrating how an aircraft will behave. I wish they had had the Mooney software. 

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

simulation can give a small idea of the looks of a spin

I'd advise moderate caution here, as over the history of flight simulation there have been numerous simulators that don't model post-stall characteristics very well.  I don't have a rundown on specific, modern simulators, such as the Prepar3D software used in the Redbird devices, maybe they are very good.  But I'm old enough to have played with some sims that just sort of "give up" once the simulated aircraft stalls, and seem to assume normal recovery technique is applied at the moment of stall rather than modeling what's actually happening.

If the goal is to set muscle memory as guided by an instructor, what the simulator actually does/shows may not actually be all that important.  But if the goal is to see what a spin looks like, I think a better bet is just to look at the numerous youtube videos from the cockpit, of real spins in real airplanes.

[midlifeflyer]

43 minutes ago, Vance Harral said:

I'd advise moderate caution here, as over the history of flight simulation there have been numerous simulators that don't model post-stall characteristics very well

Absolutely the reason for "a small idea of the looks of a spin" as you quoted. I hope it's a minor point, though, since I would hardly equate the spin recovery in a 152 with the recovery in an aircraft that does not almost fly itself out of a spin either.  

[Larry]

Isn't Don Kaye experienced in Mooney spins?  

 

[Hank]

4 hours ago, Larry said:

Isn't Don Kaye experienced in Mooney spins?  

 

His article on one is posted above, including his reluctance to do another one.

[jlunseth]

If you want to do full coordinated stalls, go find one of the really experienced Mooney instructors. Jerry Procter comes to mind, Don Kaye maybe. If you want to do full spins go to one of the upset recovery courses, where you will not spin a Mooney, but you will get alot of spin and accelerated uncoordinated stall experience. APS in the Phoenix area is my favorite. We (my instructor and I) were upside down alot doing base to final type spin recoveries (at a safe altitude). We did a 13 turn spin. But that was in a 300XL, not a Mooney. Built for the purpose.

[Ragsf15e]

54 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

If you want to do full coordinated stalls, go find one of the really experienced Mooney instructors. Jerry Procter comes to mind, Don Kaye maybe. If you want to do full spins go to one of the upset recovery courses, where you will not spin a Mooney, but you will get alot of spin and accelerated uncoordinated stall experience. APS in the Phoenix area is my favorite. We (my instructor and I) were upside down alot doing base to final type spin recoveries (at a safe altitude). We did a 13 turn spin. But that was in a 300XL, not a Mooney. Built for the purpose.

I agree with the upset course, but I think we should all be able to do “full coordinated stalls”.  I guess Id leave it to each of us to decide if the buffet or stall horn is far enough since that’s what we do on the private pilot exam now, however, I think it’s worthwhile for everyone to be confident enough to take their airplane to a full coordinated stalls.  Turning, configured, power on/off, etc.  these are easy to do and will improve your muscle memory and confidence in the airplane.  It shouldn’t take a special instructor for this.

[SilentT]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I agree with the upset course, but I think we should all be able to do “full coordinated stalls”.  I guess Id leave it to each of us to decide if the buffet or stall horn is far enough since that’s what we do on the private pilot exam now, however, I think it’s worthwhile for everyone to be confident enough to take their airplane to a full coordinated stalls.  Turning, configured, power on/off, etc.  these are easy to do and will improve your muscle memory and confidence in the airplane.  It shouldn’t take a special instructor for this.

Not in my area, full blown stalls are DPE requirement. In my case; c152 full power on 45deg bank climbing stall. 

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

 I guess Id leave it to each of us to decide if the buffet or stall horn is far enough since that’s what we do on the private pilot exam now

From the power-off stall task in the private ACS. Its the same for the power-on stall.

 

[Danb]

I pretty much agree with what was mentioned we kinda need help I have an Acclaim prior a Bravo and then a J that was the my issue during my BFR years 4000 OVC we did some stalls one turned literally into a nasty spin which I not him recovered from well under 1000’ obviously last time we flew. It was in the late 1980’s and spins weren’t as shunned upon as yet. My 1988 J if it stalled it did it proudly .  Point you definitely need spin training recovery say in a nice 150. Dan 

[TaildraggerPilot]

As a CFI that received a good bit of stall/spin training and then taught a ton of it to many pilots over decades, I strongly suggest that any, and I mean any pilot of any level should spend the time and money to get properly trained on stall/spin awareness and recovery. 

[jcolgan]

Went and did two day spin training in a citabria.  Safe and effective. 

I avoid spins in my Mooney by avoiding stalls.  Loathe slow flight, want to recover at first buffet during BFR.  One instructor got exasperated, took controls and full stalled my Mooney.  Broke left and was going straight down in a heart beat.  After recovery acted like it was no big deal.  Never flew with him again.  
I see no reason to get close to a potentially non-recoverable situation for training purposes.

Slow flight, stalls and spins in a high wing Cessna, no problem.

 In a Mooney, no thank you - I’ll pass. 

 

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

From the power-off stall task in the private ACS. Its the same for the power-on stall.

 

Oh good, so then it’s even more clear.  We should all be able to do that pretty easily and with confidence!

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, jcolgan said:

Went and did two day spin training in a citabria.  Safe and effective. 

I avoid spins in my Mooney by avoiding stalls.  Loathe slow flight, want to recover at first buffet during BFR.  One instructor got exasperated, took controls and full stalled my Mooney.  Broke left and was going straight down in a heart beat.  After recovery acted like it was no big deal.  Never flew with him again.  
I see no reason to get close to a potentially non-recoverable situation for training purposes.

Slow flight, stalls and spins in a high wing Cessna, no problem.

 In a Mooney, no thank you - I’ll pass. 

 

If you’re mooney doesn’t stall relatively straight ahead during a coordinated stall, it’s set up wrong and should be fixed.  There are stall strips on the leading edge of the wing that are set at the factory but can get moved during say painting or other maintenance that affect the stall characteristics.

[Ragsf15e]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

From the power-off stall task in the private ACS. Its the same for the power-on stall.

 

Thanks for posting that.  I have only done atp training for a long time.  I looked at atp acs and it’s the one with pre-stall recovery.

[Schllc]

I am by no means experienced in spins or aerobatics, but i can tell you that all of the planes i have done them in have behaved pretty uniquely.  I also think you would have to do a lot more that a cursory review of spin recovery to be "proficient".  The double edge sword of this kind of training is a false sense of security.  If you became very proficient in spin recovery in a citabria, I am not sure how well that would translate to recovering in a mooney?

This is more of a question than an argument, so I apologize in advance for my clumsy phrasing.

[Ragsf15e]

42 minutes ago, Schllc said:

I am by no means experienced in spins or aerobatics, but i can tell you that all of the planes i have done them in have behaved pretty uniquely.  I also think you would have to do a lot more that a cursory review of spin recovery to be "proficient".  The double edge sword of this kind of training is a false sense of security.  If you became very proficient in spin recovery in a citabria, I am not sure how well that would translate to recovering in a mooney?

This is more of a question than an argument, so I apologize in advance for my clumsy phrasing.

I agree they all look somewhat unique as they enter a spin, but there is a fairly straightforward and consistent recovery that applies to most airplanes.  The PARE acronym.  Power, Ailerons, Rudder, Elevator.  If you take a course that helps you understand each step and teaches you to apply it, the airplane will recover unless you happen to be in Something exotic or maybe a business jet, etc.  

[PT20J]

Personally, I would not be comfortable flying any airplane for which I was fearful of performing any private pilot maneuver. Repetition is what builds confidence, and I would want to get a competent instructor and repeat any maneuver that made me uncomfortable until I felt confident. The flight review provides an opportunity to explore the entire envelope of the airplane every two years. 

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Thanks for posting that.  I have only done atp training for a long time.  I looked at atp acs and it’s the one with pre-stall recovery.

Commercial is either at the direction of the evaluator.

I think the sequence makes sense. Private is basic safety and you are just learning about this stuff.

Commercial covers a multitude of operations, so dealer's choice. 

ATP is exclusively about avoidance.

They are not even covered in the instrument rating any more.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, TaildraggerPilot said:

As a CFI that received a good bit of stall/spin training and then taught a ton of it to many pilots over decades, I strongly suggest that any, and I mean any pilot of any level should spend the time and money to get properly trained on stall/spin awareness and recovery. 

The FAA thinks differently, that's why spin training was removed from the ACS. Too many students, CFIs and Examiners were being killed in spin-induced crashes.

And there is zero chance to recover from a spin in the pattern, a likely spot for accidental stall-spin to occur.

[TaildraggerPilot]

25 minutes ago, Hank said:

The FAA thinks differently, that's why spin training was removed from the ACS. Too many students, CFIs and Examiners were being killed in spin-induced crashes.

And there is zero chance to recover from a spin in the pattern, a likely spot for accidental stall-spin to occur.

I guess you missed the words “stall” and “awareness”…. 
 

sigh