Retract Gear or Flaps First in a Go Around ?

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

Dealing with Scenario (2) is much more urgent. The pilot must restore flying speed first. Urgently. Full power, trim / push down and don’t touch anything until full control is restored.

@exM20K Thinking practically on all this, I almost think that instead of thinking G-F-F or F-G-F, the first call-out item should be *trim*. This is from the Acclaim perspective as well, which you outline very well (and as noted by Don, the order in the Acclaim is G-F-F). 

Well, "duh", you think, "trim is concurrent...". But I had a learning experience when my electric trim went out back in June. I was so used to just using the trim switch, and I found myself commanding trim and the wheel not moving until I clued back in later. I knew this intellectually, but my habits had settled so that I would ride the trim switch, assume it was working, and then simultaneously start messing with other configuration. 

So, I'm either waiting for electric trim a little ('cause it's slow) or a lot ('cause it's not working for some reason, and I either didn't notice or am subsconsciously discounting it). 

Some of the earlier discussion, particularly by @Ibra, re: L/D curves in different configurations, definitely in my mind argues against raising flaps in scenario #2... you could just drop yourself further onto the backside of the power curve.  And, with the long-bodies, there is both a. enough nose-up trim to be a problem and b. enough power to overcome the gear drag, so the parasitic drag needn't be the biggest concern. 

So, what I'm saying is add some smash and concentrate on flying the plane, next would be to definitively trim to something reasonable (I'm considering now always using the wheel manually on a hard go-around in scenario #2, with "casual urgency" as @donkaye, MCFI says), then pick up the gear as you definitively come away from the ground. 

D

[exM20K]

2 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

But I had a learning experience when my electric trim went out back in June. I was so used to just using the trim switch, and I found myself commanding trim and the wheel not moving until I clued back in later.

Was there any annunciation on the PFD, or even an a/p disconnect chime?

I ask speaking of someone who has *never, ever* (except maybe a half dozen times) accidentally clicked off the a/p and trim after switching tanks and hitting that switch instead of the adjacent low boost.

-dan

[Rick Junkin]

WARNING: Blasphemy follows!

Ok, so maybe not blasphemy, but I got your attention. Please see the humor 

Bottom line up front - I generally don't use more than T/O flaps for landing, and I bring the gear up first on a go-around after I've established a positive rate of climb. I fly a long body (TLS/Bravo) with electric trim and continuously variable flaps with no T/O "notch" switch position. The center of the T/O flap range on the indicator is 10º flaps.

The semi-blasphemous part is not using full flaps for most landings. Blasphemous in the sense of not following the POH guidance, and not having published data for landing performance with T/O flaps. Or for no-flap landings for that matter, which I also prefer over full flap landings. And I also may not always observe the flap speed limit when using T/O flaps, especially if things get busy on a go-around.

One of the main drivers for finding a way to make the GEAR - UP, FLAPS - UP go-around sequence work in my Mooney is that for 33 years I primarily flew in airplanes that used that sequence. "Gear - Up, Flaps - Up, Good hydraulics" was my mantra. Now it's "Gear - Up, Flaps - Up, good RPM and manifold pressure , cowl flaps open".

A secondary driver has to do with landing attitude and my penchant for landing flat with full flaps. While practicing formation landings for the Mooney Caravan I was briefed that we would all land with a 90KIAS Vref with no flaps except the long bodies could use T/O flaps. My first formation landing rivaled the best landings I had made in my Mooney. It was easier for me to hold a nose-high attitude on touchdown and roll-out with T/O flaps or no flaps. Yes, I know it is all in my head. It's probably some hidden subconscious transference of feel or sight picture from other flying experience. I stopped trying to figure it out and just went with what works for me. In the end I improved my full flap landing consistency as well. I've suggested the technique to folks who have lost their landing Mojo and it has helped everyone I've worked with so far.

But I still only use T/O flaps for most landings, and almost every landing out of an instrument approach. The reason I choose to do this is to reduce the flight dynamics of configuration changes required in the event of a missed approach or go-around/balked landing. And with the way my flap switch is set up, holding it down for "one potato" puts the flaps consistently at the same place within the T/O bracket on the indicator, requiring only a quick crosscheck of the indicator. Otherwise it's about 6 potatos on the switch for full flaps from zero, which is a long time. That would probably be broken into two separate flap adjustments, but it's 5 extra seconds I don't need to be using my hand and brain for flaps. Looking at the stall speed numbers in the book, I discovered that 1.3 Vs at full flaps was the same as 1.2 Vs at 10º flaps. So what that allows me to do is use the 30º flap landing data computed in Foreflight and execute what would be considered a short field approach Vref at 10º flaps and get essentially the same results. It works for me, and it's the way I practice.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, jetdriven said:

Why did it get stuck in the full up position? And why was the trim on the full up stop to begin with? 

I’ve been curious about this too.

[Yetti]

this is a very slight nuance "getting up to flying speed"   last I check, you are already at flying speed on the approach.   I don't go much above level while adding some power.   It should not take much.  Gear up. keep adding power, trim, get wing to flying then climb out.    

This is the same as take off where take off, go level get gear up, build speed, get wing flying, then climb out and get flaps. 

[dkkim73]

7 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

secondary driver has to do with landing attitude and my penchant for landing flat with full flaps. While practicing formation landings for the Mooney Caravan I was briefed that we would all land with a 90KIAS Vref with no flaps except the long bodies could use T/O flaps. My first formation landing rivaled the best landings I had made in my Mooney. It was easier for me to hold a nose-high attitude on touchdown and roll-out with T/O flaps or no flaps.

I'm very curious about this. Is there a write up of the technique somewhere? Would be some good insight and practice for me. Especially for less hurried transitions out of an instrument approach. 

I've been heavily biased to full flaps to have less distance on roll out and less time to worry about wheelbarrowing. 

[donkaye, MCFI]

This has been fatiguing.  I started this as a way to provide what I have experienced to be the safest way to do a go around.  It has been mucked up by folks who think they know what they're doing but from my perspective don't.  So the folks I was trying to help are left confused by much of this red herring nonsense.  Too bad....

Just a couple of more things.  The lock up on the Rocket trim was caused by using electric trim and running it to the stops on approach.  If it had been hand trimmed I don't believe it would have locked.  As mentioned above, the Rocket is very nose heavy with the 305 HP engine so with 2 people in front it usually needs be trimmed full up on approach.  It took a lot of manual force on the center manual trim wheel to break it loose, but we did manage to do it.

Finally, of course you don't raise the gear until until you are at least 50 feet agl to prevent sinking when you do start to bring the flaps up (after the gear).  Now think about it.  Regarding drag--you are about to touch down, you are in ground effect which reduces induced drag by nearly 50% and near the stall, you add full power and start to climb out of ground effect. You bring up the flaps to T/O position first.  The nose pitches up, the stall speed increases, you lose the benefit of ground effect, then p-factor, torque, slip stream increase, you're aggressively trying to trim down, the plane loses lift and starts to sink, and you are in danger of stalling.  Does that sound like the wise thing to do?  And by the way, the flap motor moves much quicker than the trim motor on the Mooneys I have flown.  I'm sure it was designed that way to slow things down on a possible trim runaway situation.

In the end, if you want to work harder and have a greater chance of losing control of the plane, by all means bring the flaps up first.  If you want to be a more proficient pilot, my advice might be worthy of consideration.

[Yetti]

11 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

I'm very curious about this. Is there a write up of the technique somewhere? Would be some good insight and practice for me. Especially for less hurried transitions out of an instrument approach. 

I've been heavily biased to full flaps to have less distance on roll out and less time to worry about wheelbarrowing. 

My theory on full flaps for short and mid body.    And I landed half flaps most of the time unless I was high on the approach and needed them.     If you look at full flaps on the ground at the wing root there is only about 5 inches between the flap and the ground.    So full flaps is creating a pocket of air by pushing it down onto the ground.    more air down means less braking response.     The Long body really needs full flaps to slow down, so I would say the extra weight overcomes the cushion of air.  The Long body really does land nicely once speed control is learned.

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, donkaye, MCFI said:

Finally, of course you don't raise the gear until until you are at least 50 feet agl to prevent sinking when you do start to bring the flaps up (after the gear).  

Don, are you saying that you believe that the aircraft sinks when the flaps are raised?

[Shadrach]

19 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

WARNING: Blasphemy follows!

Ok, so maybe not blasphemy, but I got your attention. Please see the humor 

Bottom line up front - I generally don't use more than T/O flaps for landing, and I bring the gear up first on a go-around after I've established a positive rate of climb. I fly a long body (TLS/Bravo) with electric trim and continuously variable flaps with no T/O "notch" switch position. The center of the T/O flap range on the indicator is 10º flaps.

The semi-blasphemous part is not using full flaps for most landings. Blasphemous in the sense of not following the POH guidance, and not having published data for landing performance with T/O flaps. Or for no-flap landings for that matter, which I also prefer over full flap landings. And I also may not always observe the flap speed limit when using T/O flaps, especially if things get busy on a go-around.

One of the main drivers for finding a way to make the GEAR - UP, FLAPS - UP go-around sequence work in my Mooney is that for 33 years I primarily flew in airplanes that used that sequence. "Gear - Up, Flaps - Up, Good hydraulics" was my mantra. Now it's "Gear - Up, Flaps - Up, good RPM and manifold pressure , cowl flaps open".

A secondary driver has to do with landing attitude and my penchant for landing flat with full flaps. While practicing formation landings for the Mooney Caravan I was briefed that we would all land with a 90KIAS Vref with no flaps except the long bodies could use T/O flaps. My first formation landing rivaled the best landings I had made in my Mooney. It was easier for me to hold a nose-high attitude on touchdown and roll-out with T/O flaps or no flaps. Yes, I know it is all in my head. It's probably some hidden subconscious transference of feel or sight picture from other flying experience. I stopped trying to figure it out and just went with what works for me. In the end I improved my full flap landing consistency as well. I've suggested the technique to folks who have lost their landing Mojo and it has helped everyone I've worked with so far.

But I still only use T/O flaps for most landings, and almost every landing out of an instrument approach. The reason I choose to do this is to reduce the flight dynamics of configuration changes required in the event of a missed approach or go-around/balked landing. And with the way my flap switch is set up, holding it down for "one potato" puts the flaps consistently at the same place within the T/O bracket on the indicator, requiring only a quick crosscheck of the indicator. Otherwise it's about 6 potatos on the switch for full flaps from zero, which is a long time. That would probably be broken into two separate flap adjustments, but it's 5 extra seconds I don't need to be using my hand and brain for flaps. Looking at the stall speed numbers in the book, I discovered that 1.3 Vs at full flaps was the same as 1.2 Vs at 10º flaps. So what that allows me to do is use the 30º flap landing data computed in Foreflight and execute what would be considered a short field approach Vref at 10º flaps and get essentially the same results. It works for me, and it's the way I practice.

If you're landing flat with full flaps, why not try 1.2Vs over the threshold and full flaps?  Are you using 1.2-1.3Vs into the flare?  I use  1.X Vs speeds on approach but as soon as the runway is guaranteed, I am focused on approaching an aerodynamic stall with the wheels as close to that pavement as possible.  My F, while considerably lighter than your TLS, will still hit the nose up trim stop on approach when light.  With full flaps the aircraft will land nose high on mains and still have just adequate pitch authority to hold the nose wheel off for a few hundred feet if the yoke is held full aft.

[Rick Junkin]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

If you're landing flat with full flaps, why not try 1.2Vs over the threshold and full flaps?  Are you using 1.2-1.3Vs into the flare?  I use  1.X Vs speeds on approach but as soon as the runway is guaranteed, I am focused on approaching an aerodynamic stall with the wheels as close to that pavement as possible.  My F, while considerably lighter than your TLS, will still hit the nose up trim stop on approach when light.  With full flaps the aircraft will land nose high on mains and still have just adequate pitch authority to hold the nose wheel off for a few hundred feet if the yoke is held full aft.

It appears I should have left out my attempt at humor in saying I have a penchant for landing flat . Or phrased it differently. 

I prefer the higher deck angle afforded by using less than full flaps, that's all I was trying to say. 

[Rick Junkin]

12 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

I'm very curious about this. Is there a write up of the technique somewhere? Would be some good insight and practice for me. Especially for less hurried transitions out of an instrument approach. 

I've been heavily biased to full flaps to have less distance on roll out and less time to worry about wheelbarrowing. 

My use of the word "technique" was a little strong .

There really isn't anything to it - I set my landing configuration as I approach the FAF, gear down and flaps extended to the T/O position, and then don't change the flaps through either landing or executing a missed approach. Some refer to this flaps setting as "approach flaps". Runway length and conditions permitting, I leave the flaps at that setting and target the appropriate speeds for this configuration through landing. Nothing cosmic. If I go missed or abort the landing I don't have to do anything with the flaps until I'm well up and away, with less pitch impact when I use full power. It works comfortably for the destinations I typically fly to with longer runways. I'll extend full flaps when runway length or condition warrant.

If you find this interesting I suggest throwing one or two of these in the next time you're out practicing no-flap landings. Check the book to get the proper speeds for the configuration and see how it looks to you.

I'm not offering this as the "right" way or the "best" way, rather its "A" way to execute the approach and landing phases that I've found make my life easier.

And back to the original premise of this thread, I raise the gear first.

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

It appears I should have left out my attempt at humor in saying I have a penchant for landing flat . Or phrased it differently. 

I prefer the higher deck angle afforded by using less than full flaps, that's all I was trying to say. 

I can see how reduced flaps allows for a higher deck angle given that the effective angle of incidence corresponds to the position of the trailing edge of the flap.  At full flaps, the wing has the highest angle of incidence, meaning highest AOA for the deck angle which means it stalls flattest with full flaps.

[Hank]

40 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

My use of the word "technique" was a little strong .

There really isn't anything to it - I set my landing configuration as I approach the FAF, gear down and flaps extended to the T/O position, and then don't change the flaps through either landing or executing a missed approach. Some refer to this flaps setting as "approach flaps". Runway length and conditions permitting, I leave the flaps at that setting and target the appropriate speeds for this configuration through landing. Nothing cosmic. If I go missed or abort the landing I don't have to do anything with the flaps until I'm well up and away, with less pitch impact when I use full power. It works comfortably for the destinations I typically fly to with longer runways. I'll extend full flaps when runway length or condition warrant.

If you find this interesting I suggest throwing one or two of these in the next time you're out practicing no-flap landings. Check the book to get the proper speeds for the configuration and see how it looks to you.

I'm not offering this as the "right" way or the "best" way, rather its "A" way to execute the approach and landing phases that I've found make my life easier.

And back to the original premise of this thread, I raise the gear first.

Me, too! 

But according to the poll, we are a tiny minority. 

I do sometimes bump the flap switch a bit on final, usually some more Down, then about half the time I end up taking out some of the extra Down. Whatever is required to hit my desired landing spot.

[midlifeflyer]

47 minutes ago, Rick Junkin said:

My use of the word "technique" was a little strong .

There really isn't anything to it - I set my landing configuration as I approach the FAF, gear down and flaps extended to the T/O position, and then don't change the flaps through either landing or executing a missed approach. Some refer to this flaps setting as "approach flaps". Runway length and conditions permitting, I leave the flaps at that setting and target the appropriate speeds for this configuration through landing. Nothing cosmic. If I go missed or abort the landing I don't have to do anything with the flaps until I'm well up and away, with less pitch impact when I use full power. It works comfortably for the destinations I typically fly to with longer runways. I'll extend full flaps when runway length or condition warrant.

If you find this interesting I suggest throwing one or two of these in the next time you're out practicing no-flap landings. Check the book to get the proper speeds for the configuration and see how it looks to you.

I'm not offering this as the "right" way or the "best" way, rather its "A" way to execute the approach and landing phases that I've found make my life easier.

And back to the original premise of this thread, I raise the gear first.

Maybe someone did, but I don't recall anyone arguing to lift flaps first if you limit your final flap setting to the T/O (or partial) position. I think the discussion has been about full flaps and whether to raise them to the T/O position before raising the gear. 

And I think you use of the word "technique" is just right.