Lycoming factory .rebuilt vs new

[M20F]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

You can call them on the phone, the reputation speaks for itself. The local guy can theoreticaly build an engine just as well as anyone else, but I've all the pre-buys. I've done the smaller than less well known the name of the shop is the worse the Engine is. Notably, there was one assembled by an A&P, it had 50 hours on it and the oil pressure kept jumping around into the yellow. I refused to fly it, he had somebody else ferry the plane up and he bought it. Then he had a prop strike 15 hours later, when it went to our local Engine shop, yes, and there's been some problems from that guy, but the engine was just built, right?   But it had the wrong bearings in it. The rods were on upside down. The pistons are upside down. The ring gaps were all wrong, the previously chrome cylinders had no wall finish, and it was swallowing oil, and it had the wrong oil pressure, relief valve, and ball and spring, which is why the oil pressure was jumping around. What a nightmare that thing was. He did the prop strike inspection and put it back together with new cylinders and pistons and it's been OK since then. But the next engine I got from this guy was a freaking nightmare. I was 20 hours into warranty work fixing oil leaks, they put Loctite on the prop flange to keep oil off the windshield, which didn't do anything because it was the front seal.  We finally fixed that, and we removed all of the oil drain back to fittings from the cylinder head and had to put the proper sealer on those, and also an emergency landing at a military airbase because one of the fuel injector lines had snapped off, it literally took 20 pounds of torque to get the nut off of it, which is why they all were overstressed and one broke. We caught one of them over torqued and stripped out on the number four cylinder before we actually flew it, but this other stuff got past us. So we changed all those as well.  And then 50 hours later it's using oil so we took the cylinders off and all the cross hatch is gone. So we had those redone, and it's been good since then, but he basically had to do it twice and if you added it up all the money he spent he could've just gotten an engine from one of those big name shops.

Another very long post.  Can you or can you not buy new cylinders, cases, etc?  

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

 

 

The people that work in these shops are human. 

• Humans are prone to making mistakes.
• Dealing with a large volume of the same type engine can build greater understanding/knowledge, develop consistent processes and better maintain a depth of well-trained personnel in order to maintain consistency while dealing with vacations, sick days, and turn-over.
• A "local engine builder" might be dealing with a different engine each rebuild 
  • It can be like starting over/relearning all the quirks with that engine (and there are so many variations even in the same engine - some dictated by the airframe manufacturer).
• The Factory or a "Big Name Shop" will likely have focused teams working on the same type engine over and over
  • Repetition is not a guarantee for quality (it can have its own issues) but it reduces the effect of "forgetting what you know/have learned" during periods of inactivity with that particular engine
    • It is the same reason we need activity and repetition to stay "proficient" flying.
    • Case in point - Rocket Engineering did one of the last if not the last Missile conversion on my plane.  The mechanics told me it had been about 6 months since they did the most recent "piston" conversion, and they had been busy with JetProp DLX conversions of Malibu's.  They literally forgot how to properly plumb up the Continental fuel injection.  It is lucky that we didn't get killed flying it.  I was standing there when they had the local Continental Rep come out and diagnose their FUBAR and perform a proper SID-97 adjustment of the fuel system. 

Roll the dice.

That argument reads very well and translates well into the automotive world. If you have a specific make of automobile, there is economy for sure in having it maintained by a shop that specializes in that make. The reason that argument falls apart in the Aviation world is because your average make specific, specialty, Auto repair shop deals with a far larger scope of  designs, systems, configurations and tooling than an aviation power plant specialist would encounter servicing all of the piston, recip, engines in the GA Fleet.

Roll the dice indeed. There’s no getting away from it…

However to my way of thinking, the measure of a business doesn’t end with the quality of their product; indeed that’s just the beginning. How they stand by that product, when things go sideways is important to me. In my experience, if there is a problem, I would much rather call the guy who built the engine or the guy who hired the guy who built the engine than call a customer service line.

In my experience a shop that has a reputation in the local maintenance community we’ll go to great lengths to maintain that reputation.

I am grateful to have two reputable engine builders in my area, one of which will pick an engine up personally from the customer’s shop or hangar.

[MikeOH]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

Another very long post.  Can you or can you not buy new cylinders, cases, etc?  

No idea on cases, etc.

Last fall (2024) I ended up overhauling a cylinder as could NOT find a NEW IO-360 angle valve head

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, M20F said:

Another very long post.  Can you or can you not buy new cylinders, cases, etc?  

You can get new superior cylinders for sure. Overhauled cases are available last I checked. Mine has already been overhauled and strengthened in areas prone to failure.

[jetdriven]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

You can get new superior cylinders for sure. Overhauled cases are available last I checked. Mine has already been overhauled and strengthened in areas prone to failure.

Superior only makes parallel valve cylinders which are often back-ordered.  The angle valve cylinders aren’t coming from lycoming and continental makes Prime PMA cylinders but we haven’t seen any besides one set which were burning oil at 50hr.  Air power won’t take an order for a new case and the used ones are all hoarded.  Its been this way since 2023
io360 cylinders are 05K21120

https://www.airpowerinc.com/05k21120

 

Edited Tuesday at 03:46 AM by jetdriven

[EricJ]

I was expecting to need an angle-valve cylinder since one of mine seemed to be indicating it was going to be needed.   I was finding the same thing; there just aren't any available new.   A local machine shop can rehab it if needed, so if it comes to that I can try them and keep my fingers crossed that it still meets limits.

Meanwhile, my cylinder seems to have rehabbed itself so I don't have a problem just yet.   Superior has a video from their VP that says that this isn't unusual for many common cylinder issues:  if you leave it alone it may fix itself.

 

[Pinecone]

The one big advantage of a new or rebuilt is you can order it early and in 2 years when it shows up, you plane is down for a simple swap.

Also, new and rebuilt come with all new accessories.

[NewMoon]

On 7/26/2025 at 9:35 PM, Shadrach said:

Why anybody would risk buying a factory engine from either brand when they have a reputable engine builder within driving distance is beyond me. The economics simply don’t make sense when coupled with the increase in risk, poor factory warranty and questionable service. 

Factory “zero time” is a marketing ploy for the uninformed. If you have an existing engine with a known and proven history of reliability, why on earth would you give up those parts for unknown parts?

Why on earth would you tear down an engine that is functioning well with a history of good service in favor of an unknown? 

 

Completely agree!

[NewMoon]

On 7/27/2025 at 7:09 PM, Schllc said:

A big well know shop probably does a lot more volume. That means a record, good bad or indifferent. Not sure there is any way to know what their statistical record would be, but we know unhappy customers talk a lot, and satisfied ones are flying their planes…

I interviewed quite a few small(er) shops for quotes when I was considering a bravo. 
I would have no problem with one of them, have to look for the quote , I can’t recall the  name, but I saw the shop and it inspired confidence.  Very tidy and competent looking crew. 
that’s obviously the easy part,  but if you don’t even do that, it’s not a good sign. 
the owner called me back, spent a lot of time talking, and checked up on the proposal twice. 
lots of good signals, and I spoke to two old customers, one whom had a few issues. 
both praised his communication and integrity. 
these are the kinds of things I would like to see in a small shop. 
earnest people usually do the right thing during, and after. 
 

at least that’s the odds I play…

I had an Bravo done years ago by Poplar Grove Airmotive, very good shop

[PT20J]

12 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The one big advantage of a new or rebuilt is you can order it early and in 2 years when it shows up, you plane is down for a simple swap.

Also, new and rebuilt come with all new accessories.

Well, sort of. My IO-260 rebuilt came with a new alternator but no starter. And, if you have a dual mag engine it will come with an overhauled mag because there are no new ones available.

[purcel]

Thank so much everyone !

[Greg Ellis]

On 7/28/2025 at 10:41 PM, jetdriven said:

Superior only makes parallel valve cylinders which are often back-ordered.  

 

To get my airplane back in the air as quickly as possible, I just ordered two new Superior Cylinders from Aircraft Spruce and received them the next day.  Didn't even have to ask for next day shipping since they have a warehouse locally.  Mechanic installing them this week.  They have them in stock at least for an O-360-A1D.