EricJ Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 24 minutes ago, Hank said: I'm not worrying about the effect(s) on my Mooney of new aircraft that still.need to be designed, approved, funded, built, tested, certificated, ordered by customers then put into production profitably. There are a number that have been in light production or promotion that I suspect will get more popular now.
Fly Boomer Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 56 minutes ago, Hank said: I'm not worrying about the effect(s) on my Mooney of new aircraft that still.need to be designed, approved, funded, built, tested, certificated, ordered by customers then put into production profitably. Me either. I expect the prices on these "super LSAs" to be eye watering.
TangoTango Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 40 minutes ago, EricJ said: There are a number that have been in light production or promotion that I suspect will get more popular now. Notably the Pipstrel Panthera: It has performance very similar to a Mooney with a Lycoming IO-540, trailing-link gear, chute, and mogas. They've made a few as Experimentals and apparently they've been working on certifying it in the US. These new super LSA rules almost seem designed around it. 1
Hank Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 1 hour ago, TangoTango said: Notably the Pipstrel Panthera: It has performance very similar to a Mooney with a Lycoming IO-540, trailing-link gear, chute, and mogas. They've made a few as Experimentals and apparently they've been working on certifying it in the US. These new super LSA rules almost seem designed around it. Last I heard, they were price competitive with new Ovations, and not Vintage Mooneys.
Pinecone Posted July 23 Report Posted July 23 One thing to remember. A new IO-540 costs more than a vintage Mooney. And then there are all the other parts of the airplane itself and instruments, and ........ 1
kortopates Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 Personally IMO this is a total nothing burger. While MOSAIC will allow a Sport Pilot licensed pilot to fly some Mooney's (even if its just a C model) its still up to the Insurance companies to set the real requirements for flying a Mooney. Maybe they do at the same cost as Private with Basic med, maybe they increase the insurance cost substantially or require much longer checkout times before solo. We don't know but those could be incentives for a Sport pilot to upgrade to a Private - its not much harder. Then IMO what really makes the Sport pilot cert so limited is that our Mooney's are most popular with pilots for their efficient cross country capabilities. But that is most dependent on an instrument rating and Sport Pilots are VFR only and can't get an instrument rating till they get their Private cert and do the cross country flights they didn't need for the Sport pilot. I can only see that as attractive to some older pilots that can't qualify for a Basic Med and are willing to go strictly VFR - which will no doubt appeal to a few but I doubt many. 1
ArtVandelay Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 I’m surprised, I thought it would be only for fixed gear aircraft.
Jackk Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 (edited) 15 hours ago, kortopates said: Personally IMO this is a total nothing burger. While MOSAIC will allow a Sport Pilot licensed pilot to fly some Mooney's (even if its just a C model) its still up to the Insurance companies to set the real requirements for flying a Mooney. Maybe they do at the same cost as Private with Basic med, maybe they increase the insurance cost substantially or require much longer checkout times before solo. We don't know but those could be incentives for a Sport pilot to upgrade to a Private - its not much harder. Then IMO what really makes the Sport pilot cert so limited is that our Mooney's are most popular with pilots for their efficient cross country capabilities. But that is most dependent on an instrument rating and Sport Pilots are VFR only and can't get an instrument rating till they get their Private cert and do the cross country flights they didn't need for the Sport pilot. I can only see that as attractive to some older pilots that can't qualify for a Basic Med and are willing to go strictly VFR - which will no doubt appeal to a few but I doubt many. Flying across country VFR isn’t that big of a deal, I’d go as far as to say many instrument legal pilots who aren’t logging that many flight hours and more over that much IMC time per year would be better going VMC only, just because you can doesn’t you should The other issue with basic is you need to have HAD a FAA “medical” at some point, and there are many things (I won’t even call them conditions) that the FAA will make you jump insane hoops, tons of time, and 4-5 figures of money for before issuing even a class III. For some their time is worth too much, for others they don’t have the resources to waste appeasing bureaucracy at a agency that hates modern evidence based medicine, yet still pretends to have something to do with health and science. Edited July 24 by Jackk 2
Vance Harral Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 21 hours ago, Hank said: Last I heard, they were price competitive with new Ovations, and not Vintage Mooneys. Who is building new Ovations? Certainly not Mooney!
1980Mooney Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 20 hours ago, kortopates said: Personally IMO this is a total nothing burger. While MOSAIC will allow a Sport Pilot licensed pilot to fly some Mooney's (even if its just a C model) its still up to the Insurance companies to set the real requirements for flying a Mooney. Maybe they do at the same cost as Private with Basic med, maybe they increase the insurance cost substantially or require much longer checkout times before solo. We don't know but those could be incentives for a Sport pilot to upgrade to a Private - its not much harder. Then IMO what really makes the Sport pilot cert so limited is that our Mooney's are most popular with pilots for their efficient cross country capabilities. But that is most dependent on an instrument rating and Sport Pilots are VFR only and can't get an instrument rating till they get their Private cert and do the cross country flights they didn't need for the Sport pilot. I can only see that as attractive to some older pilots that can't qualify for a Basic Med and are willing to go strictly VFR - which will no doubt appeal to a few but I doubt many. Spot on. Maybe @Parker_Woodruff can provide a perspective from the insurance companies. So apparently any Sport Pilot with any serious or debilitating medical ailment, history of drug abuse, alcoholism, etc. just needs to show a driver's license and convince a CFI to sign off on the complex and high-performance endorsement in order to fly any Mooney up through an F model. I am not aware of any DMV rigidly revoking driver's licenses unless there has been a long history of multiple infractions, usually involving serious accidents/deaths, and even then you hear about people getting their license back. Do CFI's now face greater liability for signing off on people that they suspect may be of poor health or drug/alcohol abusers? There is a clause in MOSAIC that says "(4) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner. " This gives new meaning to "Don't Ask - Don't Tell"...... And from a passenger perspective in the event of an injury due to pilot incapacitation, does this lessen any claim that they may have? A Sport Pilot is not required to have a medical of any kind, not required to disclose anything related to health or drug/alcohol influence and no-one checks it. I can't even find a statement that a Sport Pilot should not fly if in poor health or under the influence of anything. 1
Sabremech Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 On 7/23/2025 at 2:57 PM, EricJ said: I suspect that an eventual result of all this, assuming small GA stays viable at all, is that most of our Mooneys will likely lose value as the new high-performance, 4-place LSAs with retractable gear and constant speed props (or similarly desirable LSA airplanes) become more available. I don’t think we’ll lose much value. These New LSA’s will likely cost $300 -$500K and with a shrinking customer base, not likely to impact our birds.
MikeOH Posted July 24 Report Posted July 24 1 hour ago, 1980Mooney said: Do CFI's now face greater liability for signing off on people that they suspect may be of poor health or drug/alcohol abusers? I sure don't see how! How is a non-medical person, the CFI, going to be qualified to even make that determination? Since when is a CFI tasked with ANYTHING to do with medical qualifications?? Further, if the CFI actually denies someone based on his estimation of the pilot's MEDICAL condition, I'd think the that pilot would have a pretty good lawsuit against the CFI!
kortopates Posted July 25 Report Posted July 25 I sure don't see how! How is a non-medical person, the CFI, going to be qualified to even make that determination? Since when is a CFI tasked with ANYTHING to do with medical qualifications?? Further, if the CFI actually denies someone based on his estimation of the pilot's MEDICAL condition, I'd think the that pilot would have a pretty good lawsuit against the CFI!Agreed with you there, CFI would be refusing to sign off on someone repeatedly unable to meet the ACS standards and perhaps seeing that as due to a medical impairment. But i don’t see a CFI evaluating any ones medical condition - just their ability to meet performance standards per ACS. A CFI’s greatest liability though isn’t from refusing to sign off someone, that person can find another CFI, but in signing someone off that kills themselves and pax shortly there after. (Or in the case of private student, killing themselves on their solo cross country.)Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1
Jackk Posted July 25 Report Posted July 25 25 minutes ago, kortopates said: Agreed with you there, CFI would be refusing to sign off on someone repeatedly unable to meet the ACS standards and perhaps seeing that as due to a medical impairment. But i don’t see a CFI evaluating any ones medical condition - just their ability to meet performance standards per ACS. A CFI’s greatest liability though isn’t from refusing to sign off someone, that person can find another CFI, but in signing someone off that kills themselves and pax shortly there after. (Or in the case of private student, killing themselves on their solo cross country.) Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Which is a little of it all, including medical If you can’t remember things, your reaction time is super slow, can’t judge distance, can’t read the PAPI, seem out of breath, or really anything else that makes me think I might get a call in the next 24 months from the FAA/NTSB about you, no sign off. Now if that was due to medical or lack of proficiency, or lack of skill, it’s all the same to this CFI AME/OKC may be concerned with a child hood ADHD diagnosis, 40yr old DUI ticket, if you saw a marriage counselor, or if you snore, us CFIs just care about if you can actually safely fly a airplane 2
Hank Posted July 25 Report Posted July 25 On 7/23/2025 at 7:53 PM, Hank said: Last I heard, they were price competitive with new Ovations, and not Vintage Mooneys. 3 hours ago, Vance Harral said: Who is building new Ovations? Certainly not Mooney! So it's been a while since I checked into the Panthera . . .
Hank Posted July 25 Report Posted July 25 3 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: And from a passenger perspective in the event of an injury due to pilot incapacitation, does this lessen any claim that they may have? I've read about several ATPs dieing midnight in the past few years, and others having heart attacks. These guys get a Class 1 medical with EKG every six months. How is ANY pilot supposed to know they have a problem if these guys don't? Of course, pax can't know . . . There can't be any change in liability or the airlines would force their people to do it, and they don't (that I'm aware of).
NickG Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 Are LSA aircraft still limited to 10,000feet MSL and no IFR? Even with MOSAIC?
gacoon Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 On 7/22/2025 at 1:27 PM, Hank said: The clean stall speed of my C is 64 mph = 55.6 knots. Does this mean that I can not renew my BasicMed at some point, and keep on flying??? Yes, but you may not like the limitations. You will be operating sport pilot rules: altitude 10k or less, no IFR, and maybe no night flying to mention a few.
gacoon Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 37 minutes ago, NickG said: Are LSA aircraft still limited to 10,000feet MSL and no IFR? Even with MOSAIC? As anything Faa does its complicated, the aircraft if properly equipped can be by an appropriately rated pilot. If you elect to fly on your drivers license then you must fly Sport Pilot rules.
Hank Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 6 hours ago, gacoon said: Yes, but you may not like the limitations. You will be operating sport pilot rules: altitude 10k or less, no IFR, and maybe no night flying to mention a few. Sport Pilots van fly at night with additional training, which we as Private Pilots have already received. Just as Sport Pilots can fly constant speed propellers and retractable gear with additional training, which we as Mooney Pilots have already received. But Basic Med is easy enough that I will keep doing it.
EricJ Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 4 hours ago, Hank said: But Basic Med is easy enough that I will keep doing it. I've been thinking about what the conditions might be that would cause somebody to drop Basic Med and fly on Sport Pilot priviledges. Since Basic Med is so...basic, it seems like maybe one should self-ground if things are not good enough to fly Basic Med. Perhaps if somebody's Basic Med expired then it might make sense as a temporary measure? For most of us our Mooneys don't qualify to be flown under SP rules, so kinda moot, anyway.
McMooney Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 my E qualifies, vs1 = 58kts, vs0 = 49, i'm feeling this just makes birdy more desirable, also, never having to worry about a medical is kinda cool. I currently fly basic but will be going cat2 soon just to say i can practice commercial, 8 years from now i may only do weekend burger runs, win win.
Hank Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 25 minutes ago, McMooney said: my E qualifies, vs1 = 58kts, vs0 = 49, i'm feeling this just makes birdy more desirable, also, never having to worry about a medical is kinda cool. My C is the same. Interesting to find out that a Sport Pilot can fly it after "additional training" for adjustable prop and retractable gear (kind of like "Complex Endorsement"?). When it gets difficult to find an Urgent Care to do my Basic Med exam every four years, I'll just drop back to Sport privileges and give up IMC. I'm already trained for adjustable prop, retractable gear and night flight, and almost never fly above 10,000 msl anyway, but will become limited to no people in the back seats 2
1980Mooney Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 3 hours ago, EricJ said: I've been thinking about what the conditions might be that would cause somebody to drop Basic Med and fly on Sport Pilot priviledges. Since Basic Med is so...basic, it seems like maybe one should self-ground if things are not good enough to fly Basic Med. Perhaps if somebody's Basic Med expired then it might make sense as a temporary measure? For most of us our Mooneys don't qualify to be flown under SP rules, so kinda moot, anyway. A licensed pilot with declining health or growing addictions that is in denial or just doesn't care yet still insists on flying. Someone who doesn't care about rules. The 717 page FAA MOSIAC Final Rules document is confusing and hard to digest because it only lists all the modifications to FAR. On page 677 it inserted the following into § 61.23 Medical certificates: Requirement and duration. (c) 2 (4) Not know or have reason to know of any medical condition that would make that person unable to operate an aircraft in a safe manner. It makes the Sport Pilot solely and completely responsible to self-police their health conditions prior to flight. It is complete "Don't ask - Don't tell". No Medical, no Basic - just a driver's license. Does anyone here seriously believe that Sport Pilots with only a driver's license and no Medical or Basic will stay below 10,000 ft, not take 2 or 3 passengers up or not fly at night?..... Or a pilot that doesn't give a crap about their health (or doesn't want to believe their doctor)...(or thinks that they have their addiction(s) under control) ?... Seriously? No-one is going to be policing who is PIC on flights at night or that stray above 10,000 ft. And do you really think that there will be ramp checks upon landing to count the number of passengers?! For those that want to flaunt the rules, it will be a real free-for-all. @Parker_Woodruff - where do the insurance companies stand on this?... Anyone - Tell me what I am missing....tell me what I have wrong in my interpretation of the new MOSAIC rules for pilots? 1
MikeOH Posted July 26 Report Posted July 26 4 hours ago, McMooney said: I currently fly basic but will be going cat2 soon just to say i can practice commercial Not sure why you think you need a Class 2 medical to train and earn a commercial cert. You don't. You will only need a Class 2 if you want to use the privileges of the commercial cert; that is, get PAID to fly.
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