Seeking Advice - Sell OR Keep N9353M?

[Zippy_Bird]

Hi All,

I am at a crossroads with my airplane and would appreciate the advice of experienced owners who have bought-sold and bought again.  I would like to know the motiving factors behind your decision to change platforms.

I have a 1966 Mooney M20E Super-21 that I purchased a few years back from Jimmy at GMAX.  This is my first airplane purchase and my first ownership experience.  The plane came with some big squawks, but I found a great mechanic and have repaired (or upgraded) my way to a compliant, safe, and great performing bird.  It is an absolute blast to fly and I love it.  HOWEVER...

1) It is essentially a VFR airplane with old Avionics.  It has an old Garmin 150 GPS (VFR only) navigator, two King KX155s with one KI209 head, a King KN64 DME, and a King KT76A transponder with uAvionix SkyBeacon for ADSB-out.  I have a Brittain PC wing leveler, but currently no auto-pilot capabilities.  Panel is the Mooney shot-gun SIX plus the one KI209 VOR with GS.

2) I really want to do IFR training in my own airplane.  While there is an argument I could train in mine now (flying Victor airways doing old-school approaches ILS, VOR, and DME) this is NOT the current state of IFR training or IFR flying.  Initial discussion with a local CFII about this possibility did not yield a willing instructor.

3) The estimates I have seen to upgrade the avionics are considerable.

4) I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

I love this Mooney.  It has some great upgrades (Hartzell Scimitar Prop, PowerFlow Exhaust, Garmin GI-275 EIS, CIES fuel senders).  But, given all the above is NOW the time to accept a mission change and get another platform?  Not 100% certain trading the Mooney for another airplane is the right move, likewise not 100% certain adding avionics $$$ is the right move either.

Maybe I am missing something.  Would appreciate some other perspectives!

Thanks,

Zach

 

 

Edited July 21 by Zippy_Bird

[EricJ]

Are there any airplanes that you think, "yeah, that'd work" for your future mission expectations?    It sounds like five or six seats is going to be a good idea going forward if you want to take the family somewhere.   Cherokee six?   A36 Bonanza?   

[MikeOH]

35 minutes ago, Zippy_Bird said:

I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

If THIS is a requirement, then the rest is irrelevant, you MUST sell.  With or without upgrades of any and all kinds, you are NOT going to meet the "family haul" need with your Mooney, or any other Mooney.

You need to look at some larger airframes/payloads.

[MikeOH]

1 minute ago, EricJ said:

Cherokee six

Thinking the same...it's just not a "Zippy Bird"

[Paul Thomas]

I've heard many people say a Lance is a 150 KTAS airplane; I've never flown one but if that's the case, that would be close to Mooney speed, just more fuel burn for the load carrying ability. I would investigate that if I was looking at a 6 seater. The A36 is a great airplane, but it's not in my budget.

[McMooney]

59 minutes ago, Zippy_Bird said:

Hi All,

I am at a crossroads with my airplane and would appreciate the advice of experienced owners who have bought-sold and bought again.  I would like to know the motiving factors behind your decision to change platforms.

I have a 1966 Mooney M20E Super-21 that I purchased a few years back from Jimmy at GMAX.  This is my first airplane purchase and my first ownership experience.  The plane came with some big squawks, but I found a great mechanic and have repaired (or upgraded) my way to a compliant, safe, and great performing bird.  It is an absolute blast to fly and I love it.  HOWEVER...

1) It is essentially a VFR airplane with old Avionics.  It has an old Garmin 150 GPS (VFR only) navigator, two King KX155s with one KI209 head, a King KN64 DME, and a King KT76A transponder with uAvionix SkyBeacon for ADSB-out.  I have a Brittain PC wing leveler, but currently no auto-pilot capabilities.  Panel is the Mooney shot-gun SIX plus the one KI209 VOR with GS.

2) I really want to do IFR training in my own airplane.  While there is an argument I could train in mine now (flying Victor airways doing old-school approaches ILS, VOR, and DME) this is NOT the current state of IFR training or IFR flying.  Initial discussion with a local CFII about this possibility did not yield a willing instructor.

3) The estimates I have seen to upgrade the avionics are considerable.

4) I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

I love this Mooney.  It has some great upgrades (Hartzell Scimitar Prop, PowerFlow Exhaust, Garmin GI-275 EIS, CIES fuel senders).  But, given all the above is NOW the time to accept a mission change and get another platform?  Not 100% certain trading the Mooney for another airplane is the right move, likewise not 100% certain adding avionics $$$ is the right move either.

Maybe I am missing something.  Would appreciate some other perspectives!

Thanks,

Zach

 

 

you're gonna spend $$$$+ buying a new plane and getting it setup the way you want, making it kinda a wash.  besides the avioncs anything else you want ?

gi-375 and 2x gi-275 or even 2x g5 get's you everything you need for IFR, 275's even fixes your shotgun panel problem.

from experience, if the brittain works, it goes a long way in IR training, truthfully,  you may want to disable it every now and again to get real feel.  

Totally get it—my ’74 E was a bit of a mess in the avionics department when I picked her up. Since then I’ve added a new audio panel, GNC355A, G5s, GNS480, and an MD200-706. GNC215's going in next month too. Honestly, even if I’d dropped another 40 grand on a different plane, I’d probably still be right where I am now.

 

 

 

Edited July 22 by McMooney

[IvanP]

If yuo are planning on hauling 4 people on cross country missions, Mooney is probably not the best plane for you, no matter how much yoyu spend on new avionics. Even in long-bodies, you will likely run into weight issues and tradeoff between pasengers and bags v. fuel. I love my Bravo for the missions we fly - 2 adults and some bags with enough fuel for 500-600nm legs with reserves while staying under gross weight on T/O.  Loading 4 poeple would signifcantly reduce range, probably to the point of the trip not being feasible or enjoyable. 

Edited July 22 by IvanP

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, Zippy_Bird said:

But, given all the above is NOW the time to accept a mission change and get another platform?

Choice of platform is best done through consideration of the primary mission. You bought your Mooney to satisfy a mission, and from what you've said the mission has changed. Or is changing. So the question I would ask myself is, can my Mooney still satisfy my changing mission, and at what cost and for how long? Do I want to minimally upgrade/update the panel to complete my instrument training and THEN consider a platform change? Or do I want to complete my instrument training in the airplane in which I will be traveling? My opinion is the latter would be ideal.

You're planning to fly your family, presumably on family trips. You can do that VFR, but I highly recommend completing your instrument ticket before undertaking serious family travel. Folks do it, and safely, sure. But what you gain through instrument training makes a world of difference for you as a more competent and well rounded pilot. My perspective was that my family deserved that from me if I was going to be flying them around. But I'm really conservative too, so my answer isn't the right one for everyone. Just for me. But it sounds like you've already decided to get your ticket.

You have a family of 5, so the Mooney is not going to work for family trips. Is that a primary mission? If it is, you've already answered your own question. Time to look for an airplane with more seats and decide what compromises are needed (sacrifice speed?) to make it work.

[Fritz1]

You know the answer already, develop a budget and a time schedule, 

[dkkim73]

In addition to 

1 hour ago, Zippy_Bird said:

4) I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

The first sentence is, in my mind, the linchpin. 

My general observation in this situation is that they won't want to do that forever. Maybe not even very long if it's not encouraged. I miss my children's enthusiasm for anything I was doing when they were young. For some families getting early time together makes for life-long memories and passions. I took a long hiatus from flying and kick myself for not going back sooner. 

So, I'd bias towards just making the decision and finding a bigger plane. No idea of your budget, but some good suggestions above. You might also consider a C210 (or T210 if you need that). You haven't mentioned desire for a turbo, but your base shows 410' MSL in KY, so I'm guessing not a hard need. 

Too bad to hear about your CFII feedback. My bias is that you don't need a modern glass panel to learn IFR. One thing to consider is that the situational awareness of a big display can be nice for safety IMHO, but you can get 80% of the SA by just getting a really good portable GPS or an iPad. 

I agree with Rick, the instrument rating is a real safety boost and enabler if you're flying with family. Even if you don't fly hard IFR, it makes complicated VFR trips occasionally into simple IFR trips, and improves your mental bandwidth. 

Your plane sounds nice. Let that M20E be the next guy's ticket upwards! Unless of course you can keep both

 

[Vance Harral]

2 hours ago, Zippy_Bird said:

I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.

This is exciting, and fun, and I'm sympathetic to the advice in this thread to upgrade to something bigger as part of your decision.

But at the risk of being a Debbie Downer, you need to seriously consider the possibility your entire family will almost never fly with you at the same time as the years go by.  I say this because I've seen it play out over and over with my own family and those of other pilots.  The initial excitement wears off, and it's extremely common for spouses and children to decide they're just not that interested in flying with Captain Dad (or Captain Mom), resulting in that carefully-selected PA32 or C210 or A36 flying most of its trips with empty seats and unused payload.

Sometimes this is a risk management thing where an uncomfortable flight results in one spouse deciding to limit the "little airplane" exposure of the whole family at once.  More commonly it's the just the result of growing children with inflexible school and sports schedules and other interests/obligations opting out of GA travel with no malice intended.  It's not that the spouse and kids don't like flying, necessarily; but the adventure of it often isn't a good tradeoff vs. other concerns.

So... in days past it would have been common advice to keep the Mooney and rent a 6-seater for the (likely rare) occasions when it's needed.  I do understand the rental market for that sort of airplane has largely dried up.  Still, it might be the better approach, and at least worth investigating.

I don't mean to suggest I know your family better than you.  The excitement doesn't always wear off, and some pilots make lots of fun trips with a partner in the right seat and a crateload of kids in back.  Just trying to politely inject a dose of reality as you contemplate what for most of us is an extremely expensive trade-up cost.

[M20F]

2 hours ago, Zippy_Bird said:

4) I have a wife and three young boys keen to fly in Dad's airplane.  Even if I were to upgrade avionics to complete my instrument rating, I cannot family-haul.

I rode in the baggage compartment in my 50’s, your kids will fit just fine. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

If you decide to upgrade to a 6 place I would recommend selling your Mooney now, bank that money.  Rent a plane and get your instrument rating while you shop for a new plane.   When you find what you like purchase and enjoy the lower insurance premiums and greater utility.  The cost to rent a plane to get the IR will be the same or maybe less than it takes to own a Mooney.   You get the experience of getting the IR with the modern equipment and since you already sold the Mooney your overall aviation budget is approximately the same.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I borrowed a friend’s Turbo Saratoga a couple of years ago and flew it to New Orleans and back. It was a sweet ride. It was big and comfy and would do 170 KTS on 14 GPH. Probably the best bang for the buck in its class.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

I borrowed a friend’s Turbo Saratoga a couple of years ago and flew it to New Orleans and back. It was a sweet ride. It was big and comfy and would do 170 KTS on 14 GPH. Probably the best bang for the buck in its class.

Thread drift.....I never understood why Piper decided back in 2009 to cease production of the Saratoga line.  It's not like they were hard-up for cash/liquidity or going out of business (e.g. Mooney).

Even more thread drift....I found the OP's opening comment interesting.  "1966 Mooney M20E Super-21 that I purchased a few years back from Jimmy at GMAX.  ....The plane came with some big squawks,"

[1980Mooney]

7 hours ago, Zippy_Bird said:

2) I really want to do IFR training in my own airplane.  While there is an argument I could train in mine now (flying Victor airways doing old-school approaches ILS, VOR, and DME) this is NOT the current state of IFR training or IFR flying.  Initial discussion with a local CFII about this possibility did not yield a willing instructor.

3) The estimates I have seen to upgrade the avionics are considerable.

... Not 100% certain trading the Mooney for another airplane is the right move, likewise not 100% certain adding avionics $$$ is the right move either.

You can spend a ton on upgrading avionics, especially if you want a new autopilot too.  The more you look, the more you will want.  Feature-creep will set in.  

If for some reason you wind up selling the plane after a major avionics upgrade, plan on losing about 50% of what you invested in the avionics.

Rather than giving your panel and autopilot a major makeover, you are better off buying a plane with enough seats and one that already has the modern avionics that you need/desire.  The seller that installed the avionics has already taken the haircut on price.  And if you have to sell the next plane with the "modern" avionics already installed, you are in a better position to recoup your investment.

 

[Z W]

I'd consider putting in a pair of GI275's and a GNC355, using those and the plane you have and know to get your instrument rating, and then selling it and getting something with more seats to suit your family's needs if that's still what you want to do when you're ready.

You'll have a much easier time selling the Mooney with an IFR GPS and modern AI/HSI. The investment would be reasonable, in terms of avionics, and you'll get some of it back when you sell. You don't get all your investment back when you go all out with big glass, but I think putting in bare minimum IFR equipment like this is different and you get most or all of it. Your plane will appeal to more buyers and generally be safer and better.

You won't have to pay to rent another plane to get your instrument. You'll also have a better idea of what kind of panel you want in the next plane you buy once you've flown around "in the system" for a while.

Without the instrument rating, I found it very difficult to use any airplane for family cross-country trips anyways. Your wife and kids may lose enthusiasm for flying with you if they're stuck away from home for 3+ days in a hotel waiting for VFR weather between here and there. 

[Pinecone]

Along the idea of rental, look around for a club with 6 seaters.   A friend is in a club in MSP area that has several 210s.  Also, ask around to see if anyone around you has a 6 seater that would consider some sort of lease/rental/partnership.

[dkkim73]

Couple good ideas above. If time is an issue, and there is rental availability, @Utah20Gflyer's plan makes a lot of sense and gets you moving sooner. 

Might have the benefit of giving you some hands-on with different panels and getting a sense of what you'll want. I remember the first time I flew a modern turbo C182, it was a revelation, at least compared to my 1960's club trainers. 

OTOH if you're attached to your plane, the GI275 + IFR GPS plan gives you the benefit of carrying forward that familiarity. Assuming you can get it done in a timely fashion. Agree on the value of selling an IFR-capable plane. Unclear how much money you recover, so to speak, but you'll appeal to a wider range of pilots. 

 

[TaildraggerPilot]

A Bo, Lance, Saratoga or, gasp, Centurion would check the “family hauler” box, but be prepared for some pain during the first annual (or continuous pain with a C-210)

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, TaildraggerPilot said:

or continuous pain with a C-210

Are they that bad?

[Pinecone]

Search 210 gear issues.

Could also go fixed gear for cost like a 206.  But give up speed.

[Zippy_Bird]

To everyone who responded a heartfelt thank-you!  A couple of follow-on thoughts after reviewing the excellent comments:

1)  I found "primary mission" very salient.  I went back to my logs.  I discovered since January 1st 2020 55% of flights were SOLO, 42% had ONE passenger, and 3% had TWO passengers.  I was surprised to find I flew passengers that much, and would expect passenger flights to grow with a sky-suburban that could haul the full family... at least until the boys grow up and decide I'm not cool!

2)  The idea of having my cake and eating it too was NOT one I considered.  Keep the Mooney and borrow a six-place... I like the idea.  I have already put out feelers at my FBO and am making calls to others.  Will also hit up my local EAA chapter.  I think it is long shot, but worth running to ground before making a big move.

3)  Something critical I have not done, that I realized after reading everyone's comments, is I need to take up each of my boys in the Mooney individually with Mom too to make sure we don't have a freak-out.  They all love playing pilot in the hanger, but starting the money-to-noise converter and rotating skyward is a VERY different stimulus.  I need to clear that hurdle before I do anything.

Thanks again to everyone!  I'll keep the forum posted as things unfold.

Cheers,

Z

 

 

[Jackk]

I would not use any instructor who wouldn’t train you in that plane.

 

 There is zero reason you can’t get your instrument ticket in it as it sits and the fundamentals are the same, learning a new radio isn’t exactly rocket surgery.

 

 Could just toss a 430W in and a couple G5s without too much $$.

 

One thing those chases the Jones don’t like to talk about, that will shoot all the same approaches just the same as the newest most expensive glass panel.  
 

Having a flight director is VERY desired 

 

 I see some stecs come up for sale if you need auto pilot, the new garmins are not to crazy price wise ether.

 

 Seems your current plane and your is a known commodity and very capable, unless you NEED a Saratoga or larger plane, I’d stick with what ya got 

[NewMoon]

On 7/21/2025 at 7:56 PM, MikeOH said:

Thinking the same...it's just not a "Zippy Bird"

TU206