Vintage Mooney Bladder Value?

[Andy95W]

This question is to try to determine the added value at resale for a fuel bladder installation in a vintage Mooney (M20C/E/F/G).

Particularly if anyone here recently bought or looked to buy a vintage Mooney, how much value would you give to one that had bladders over the original wet wing, if any at all?

Secondly, what detraction, if any, would you take away from a Mooney with 20 year old resealed tanks, but patched?

Hopefully Jimmy Garrison @jgarrison can give some input as well.

And if any of you hadn’t guessed, my 64 M20C was resealed 20 years ago and is just now starting to leak in 2 or 3 spots.  I’m considering putting in bladders so I don’t have to continue patching and (hopefully) to gain some resale value.  I’m probably going to sell my airplane in about 5 years or so.

Thanks!

[KSMooniac]

Bladders are a deduction for me due to the loss of fuel capacity and/or loss of payload capability.  You cannot have too much useful load, or fuel capacity, as those features increase the utility and flexibility of any Mooney.  The 30-45 lb hit for bladders could be your weekend luggage on a trip, or that last little bit of fuel to make a trip non-stop safely.

If your 20 year old reseal was done by a pro, you might be able to effectively patch it for quite a while longer.  If it was not done by one of the experts, then consider getting it done and that will increase the resale value more than the bladders IMO.   I think bladders ultimately end up being more expensive too.

I had Weep-no-More reseal my J in 2008 and don't regret it one bit.  If/when I have any issues in the future, I'll start with them again to see if expert patching can extend the life of that previous work.  

[MikeOH]

Bladders would be a negative for me. FWIW, my 1970 F is still on its original sealant.  I've had it patched three times over the last 7 years and when it gets too frequent I'll pay for a strip & seal.  I would value a recent reseal (<10 years ago) if I was shopping.

[Vance Harral]

Bladders would be a slight negative for me but not a deal killer.  I'd certainly pay more for an airplane with a recent bladder installation than an otherwise equivalent airplane with old, seeping wet wings.

I'm sure some individual potential buyers would pay extra for an airplane with bladders, but as you can see from the responses so far, they are not universally acknowledged to be more valuable.

[Schllc]

Bladders or resealing will not really add any value, because it is merely maintenance on your airplane.  However, it will make it easier to sell when people are comparing to other planes. 
I would absolutely vote for a resealing, I just did mine and Edison at kfxe said it would be four weeks from the date I dropped off, and that’s exactly what it was. 

[Mooneymite]

Andy, were I to buy a vintage Mooney today, I would far prefer one with bladders and would pay more.

As you are aware, I owned a C with bladders for almost 25 years and never had a problem with them.  The C actually gained a bit of fuel capacity, and my wife and I never needed the few pounds the bladders cost.  For me everything about the bladders was a plus.

The constant posts on Mooneyspace about wet wing issues were a nearly daily reminder of the benefit of bladders.

Gus

 

[BrianWilkins]

Bladders would add some value in my opinion. In fact, a friend of mine and I both just had bladders installed and in his case it added fuel capacity. At some point, most Mooneys are going to need either a tank reseal or bladders. There are plenty of debates on both sides as to which is better, but a recent one of either means that a new owner isn’t going to need to spend that time and money on doing it. Therefore, it adds value just as a more recently overhauled engine would add more value than an older one. 

[Fly Boomer]

8 hours ago, Andy95W said:

This question is to try to determine the added value at resale for a fuel bladder installation in a vintage Mooney (M20C/E/F/G).

As @Schllc said above, "Bladders or resealing will not really add any value, because it is merely maintenance on your airplane."  Also true for tires, starters, alternators, mags, and all the other things that are just maintenance items.  People list these things in adverts all the time because they paid big bucks for them, but replacing or fixing these things when they are worn out is just normal maintenance.  Same for fixing leaky tanks, regardless of how they are fixed. 

[Schllc]

48 minutes ago, BrianWilkins said:

Bladders would add some value in my opinion.

It absolutely adds value, just not money. 
it will be easier to sell which will translate into savings. 

[TheAv8r]

FWIW I have ruled out Mooneys that did not have bladders because I didn't want to mess with wet wings. It was absolutely a deciding factor for me purchasing my M20E. 

[Andy95W]

Thanks to everyone for their input.  Lots of good opinions given, and it sounds like a good bit comes down to personal preference.

Jimmy Garrison’s valuation guide used to give an actual $ figure.  Does anyone have that?  My information is about 15 years old.

Thanks again!

[Andy95W]

A quick follow up:  Jimmy Garrison got back to me, he said he would add about $2000 to the appraised value of a bladder modified Mooney, and maybe a little more.  (He’s a top-notch guy, BTW.)

I think @Schllc opinion is probably correct, a majority of the added value is likely that it would make it easier to sell.

And it turns out my tank reseal is 24 years old, so I’m not sure how that will affect my decision.

Thanks again.

Edited May 30 by Andy95W

[Aaviationist]

I wouldn’t pay more for bladders. 
 

and I wouldn’t pay more for a recent reseal (although I’d consider something extra if there was a warranty, but not for the maintenance itself)

 

it either leaks or it doesn’t. If it does, it needs maintenance. If it doesn’t, it doesn’t add anything. 

[DXB]

Never again having to worry about leaks, strip vs patch discussions and related cost/hassle/bs, is PRICELESS.

So I guess they add infinity to the current  value 

[bluehighwayflyer]

Hey, Andy. If you fly much long distance cross country and decide to go with bladders consider the 64 gallon installation.  If you are like me, the backseats are usually empty in the short body anyway, so useful load is never really an issue and the extra 10 gallons comes in handy every now and then.  You’ll like the bladders if you go with them, and who knows, maybe “long range tanks” will be a good sales pitch in a few years.

Jim

[JoeM]

My E model had 64 gal bladders when I bought it, which I thought was a plus. I didn't pay extra for them, but have enjoyed not having to worry about leaking tanks. The J model I now partner in has a leaky right tank so we are dealing with that issue again. Not much fun..... I think Jimmy is right, they are worth more than a plane without them. 

[DCarlton]

I just finished having bladders installed last month.  For me, it came down to logistics.  I had an appointment with Weep No More and was looking forward to the trip, but broke down in AZ enroute from CA to MN with a prop issue that took a month to resolve.  I rescheduled.  Then when the time came for the next appointment, it was summer and hell hot across the southwest.  I also had several other pressing issues at the time that sucked the fun out of the trip, so I cancelled.  I ended up going with bladders.  I figured if I couldn't get to MN when required on someone else's timeline, I'd never get back for warranty repairs if needed.  My two cents:  If you live close enough to Weep No More and can get an appointment (you may wait a year or more), get a reseal.  If you want to be able to help yourself locally to include installation and any future repairs, get bladders.  I'm happy to have squeaky clean rubber fuel bladders with all new vents, drains, inlet tubes / screens, and modern fuel caps.  However, bladders will cost you twice as much as a reseal.  You'll pay roughly 10K for a reseal and 20K for bladders (10.5K for parts and the STC, and 6K-10K for labor; 40-65 hrs).  You might do a little better if you're lucky.  As far as future value, I don't torture myself with a sharp pencil.  I tell myself I can get at least the value of the parts if the plane were parted out.  It takes the pressure off of worrying about future outcomes.  Who knows what the market will be like or how patient I will be when it comes time to sell and move on; that alone could affect the selling price 20-30 percent.     

[Hank]

Don't worry about the resale value of anything you do with or to the airplane, worry about its usefulness to you. Trying to set up your plane to appeal to the desires of an unknown future potential buyer is wasted effort and worrying. If you want it, do it! Just like when you first bought your Mooney . . .

A good strip and reseal will have a waiting period and generally take 3-4 weeks. @DCarlton can give recent bladder installation time, but expect variance depending in who does it and how much recent experience they have installing bladders in Mooneys.

As always, fly like your life depends on it, because it does!

[Andy95W]

@DCarlton- I was hoping you’d chime in.  Your post (with pictures) was one of the main reasons I started considering bladders.  Thank you!  If I go with bladders, I’ll likely be emailing you and your mechanic questions during the process.

My dilemma really comes down to patch my tanks for about $400 and about 20 hours, or $10.5K and 60 hours for bladders.  (I’ll do the work myself.) Patchwork is a little deceptive, though.  I’ll definitely have to do it again in the next 5 years, and maybe twice more.

[MikeOH]

48 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

@DCarlton- I was hoping you’d chime in.  Your post (with pictures) was one of the main reasons I started considering bladders.  Thank you!  If I go with bladders, I’ll likely be emailing you and your mechanic questions during the process.

My dilemma really comes down to patch my tanks for about $400 and about 20 hours, or $10.5K and 60 hours for bladders.  (I’ll do the work myself.) Patchwork is a little deceptive, though.  I’ll definitely have to do it again in the next 5 years, and maybe twice more.

At which point, you’ll be out, what, $1500 vs $10,000 to 20,000? Just sayin’

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

@DCarlton- I was hoping you’d chime in.  Your post (with pictures) was one of the main reasons I started considering bladders.  Thank you!  If I go with bladders, I’ll likely be emailing you and your mechanic questions during the process.

My dilemma really comes down to patch my tanks for about $400 and about 20 hours, or $10.5K and 60 hours for bladders.  (I’ll do the work myself.) Patchwork is a little deceptive, though.  I’ll definitely have to do it again in the next 5 years, and maybe twice more.

When we opened my tanks, we were surprised at the amount of thick sealant and patchwork.  Patching my tanks again may not have been very successful.  I'm a retired engineer and there was a fun factor working locally with the bladder STC.  My mechanic and I agreed, that if money was no factor, we'd rather install bladders than scrape and reseal tanks.  With that said, there were more parts involved than I expected (rivets, screws, clamps, plates, tubes, foam, tape, grommets, sealant) but the kit and instructions were well implemented.  I wasn't crazy about drilling new drain holes in each bay; it's hard to drill a hole in an airplane.  The design of the main vent/drain was kinda strange and unfinished looking to me but it works.  There's a couple of rib stiffners that require modification and there are holes in the ribs for the bladder interconnect tubes that need to be modified; you'll want to be sure you're doing it correctly.  I emailed Griggs and called with questions several times and they were very helpful and responsive; no delays getting back to me.  If you have questions, I'm happy to give you my opinion but I wouldn't hesitate to contact Griggs either.  Ruth is very responsive and she'll get the guys in the shop on the phone if needed.  Since you're so close to MN, seems like a pro reseal is another option too but you'll be watching instead of doing; not as much satisfaction in that.  

[DCarlton]

36 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

At which point, you’ll be out, what, $1500 vs $10,000 to 20,000? Just sayin’

It is a significant chunk of change for an old airplane.   

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

It is a significant chunk of change for an old airplane.   

That is very well said.  I think that's the fact that sticks in my craw. If I had a $200K+ aircraft, that would be 5% kind of expense, and lost in the rounding over a 10 to 20 year, or more, bladder or reseal life.  But I'm the 'low end' owner where that kind of cash is a giant fraction of what I paid for the plane, and over 50% of my annual operating costs!

Ultimately, this is a pricey hobby for most of us, and it comes down to satisfaction value, NOT monetary value; there's NO financial payback on anything to do with flying!

[DCarlton]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

That is very well said.  I think that's the fact that sticks in my craw. If I had a $200K+ aircraft, that would be 5% kind of expense, and lost in the rounding over a 10 to 20 year, or more, bladder or reseal life.  But I'm the 'low end' owner where that kind of cash is a giant fraction of what I paid for the plane, and over 50% of my annual operating costs!

Ultimately, this is a pricey hobby for most of us, and it comes down to satisfaction value, NOT monetary value; there's NO financial payback on anything to do with flying!

I figure I'll have to fly for around 200 more hours with no more major expenses before I offset the cost of my last round of maintenance plus bladder installation (if compared to renting).  This is how I convince myself the expense was acceptable given the advantages of owning vs. renting.  Crossing my fingers nothing major breaks any time soon.  

[Andy95W]

7 hours ago, MikeOH said:

At which point, you’ll be out, what, $1500 vs $10,000 to 20,000? Just sayin’

You’re absolutely right.  Fact is I’ve wanted to install bladders ever since I had my first Mooney back in the 90s.  If my wife signs off on the expense, I’ll have to turn in my CB membership card.