Extreme cold temperature winterization

[Shiroyuki]

4 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

I guess in that case, you’ll need to do a really thorough preheat on the engine, ideally starting the night before. Have you got cowl blankets and stuff? Also try to preheat the interior to protect your avionics, plastics, etc. Ground lean the engine out after start and get it as hot as you possibly can before run up and subsequent application of takeoff power. You should see an initial rise in oil temp, then a drop as the vernatherm opens and allows cold oil to circulate back into the engine and through the cooler, then another rise in temperature which would indicate all of the oil is now flowing properly through the engine. Once the oil is hot cycle the prop a few times and observe the oil pressure drop and rise, too high of oil pressure is just as bad as not enough. You can blow out your oil filter and engine seals. If the battery is in good condition, it should be able to start the engine no problem, maybe give it an 8-10 second prime. Oil pressure with that thick of oil may be very slow to rise on startup, so keep an eye on it. If you don’t see any within 15-20 seconds, shut it down. The book says 30, but I always thought that was way too long. 
 

Once she’s hotted up and you’re airborne, you’ll want to lean in the climb and aggressively in cruise to keep the temps up. Running too rich in the winter keeps the engine too cold and can lead to a lot of corrosion inside. Enjoy the crisp, cold air!

That's a really good analysis of what I should expect for oil temeperature! Good to know. By any chance would you have any idea at what temperature should I expect the vernatherm to open up? 200?

I do have a Reiff XP system which including a 200 watt oil pan heater, and four cylinder head heater at 100 watt each. That's the most powerful installed heater I can find. I do have a engine blanket as well. Beside all the, I have a 1500w car heater that can be tucked inside the cowl intake to provide more heat, or used to heat the cabin. 

I suppose there is really nothing I can do about those grease in the gear or other places, but if someone is flying in -30c, regardless if it previously parked inside a heated hangar or not, these unheated part will become freezing cold real quick.

[Slick Nick]

You’re right, there’s not much you can do about things like landing gear pucks, etc. just be cognizant of how brittle things can become in the cold temperatures and try and be as gentle as you can. Cowl flaps open for start, close them up as soon as the engine is running and keep them closed you will not need them at all when it’s that cold.

What are you doing to clean frost and snow off of the airframe? Have you got wing covers and stuff? 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Slick Nick

[Shiroyuki]

2 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

You’re right, there’s not much you can do about things like landing gear pucks, etc. just be cognizant of how brittle things can become in the cold temperatures and try and be as gentle as you can. Cowl flaps open for start, close them up as soon as the engine is running and keep them closed you will not need them at all when it’s that cold.

What are you doing to clean frost and snow off of the airframe? Have you got wing covers and stuff? 

I have a canopy cover but no wing cover. I find wing cover to be mostly useless because moisture will condense below it and freeze. I'm going to spray the plane with hot type 1 fluid and make sure it is properly clean before departure.

My battery was just replaced this summer, and new muffler this spring too... I hope they will last me a long time.

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, bigmo said:

I think you’re spot on. They probably work long after you go unconscious. 

They aren't quite the bad.  The OSHA limit for Carbon Monoxide exposure if 50 PPM for 8 hours per day.  A rule of thumb for 24 hour exposure (no rest/recovery) is 1/10th, so 5 PPM.  American Council of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (consensus) standard is 25 PPM for 8 hours.  Short term limit (15 minutes) is 200 PPM.  That said, I know of a warehouse with poorly tuned propane forklifts that was running over 240 PPM, at sea level.

And most standards take into account normal workplace altitudes, but we fly above those.  I would not be concerned with 5 PPM in the cockpit, but would have it addressed once I was on the ground.  25 would trigger to me do something now.  This is my WAG from some 40 years doing occupational health and safety and it not intended to direct your response.

The problem with the Dead Stop is that the color change is subtle.  And most people mount them out of line of sight.  So even if it did change color, you probably would not notice.  When Aviation Consumer tested. here is what they said.

"Having seen these in dozens of aircraft, nary a one darkened, we assumed they were nothing more than a feel-good gimmick, albeit a cheap one. Thats hardly the case, however. When exposed to CO in our test device, the Dead Stop turned noticeably darker after about five minutes of exposure at around 125 PPM, a low to mid-level of CO. At 500 and above, the patch darkens fast enough to watch, turning pitch black."

Sorry, but 5 minutes at 125 PPM, IMO, is too slow for a change you might not see across the cockpit.  Pitch black at 500 PPM, at altitude, you may not ever see as you will be marginally functional. The level where CO is considered Immediately Dangerous to Life and Health is 1200 PPM.  At half that at altitude, you WILL be impaired.

[dkkim73]

On 12/29/2024 at 4:57 PM, Slick Nick said:

That oil is too thick for that temperature. Even 15-50 is outside the optimal range. Section 8 of your POH will list the proper oil grades. 20W-30 is what's recommended for below 10*F.

I fly in -30*C temps all the time.

Canadian much?  That entire post has a real ring of authenticity... I can hear the snow squeak as you step on it. Lived in MN for several years and got just a taste of all the little winterproofing rituals.

Do you have a "schedule" or "rhythm" for changing oil grades during the year? Seems like a significant input to the OP's problem. 
Since I'm down in Montana now where it's warm I don't have quite the challenge you do, though I really an loving my Reiff XP plus cowl plugs on the occasional very cold or left-out days. Thankfully I am usually hangared. 
D

 

[Slick Nick]

1 hour ago, dkkim73 said:

Canadian much?  That entire post has a real ring of authenticity... I can hear the snow squeak as you step on it. Lived in MN for several years and got just a taste of all the little winterproofing rituals.

Do you have a "schedule" or "rhythm" for changing oil grades during the year? Seems like a significant input to the OP's problem. 
Since I'm down in Montana now where it's warm I don't have quite the challenge you do, though I really an loving my Reiff XP plus cowl plugs on the occasional very cold or left-out days. Thankfully I am usually hangared. 
D

 

I keep my plane inside year round so I don't mess with changing oils much, even when I'm at an outstation I'll have the plane put inside overnight so the engine never really gets "cold." If I am somewhere say, for lunch and it's cold outside, just putting the cowl plugs in and parking away from the wind usually keeps the engine nice and warm for a couple hours while I'm gone.

[Aaviationist]

For preheating - I got a 30$ space heater from Amazon, some 4 in dryer duct, and a flange with a round 4 inch transition. 
 

screwed the flange to the space heater outlet, connected the duct and put it in the cowling. Will hear me to 80 in no time at 15f. 
 

total cost about 50$

[Shiroyuki]

On 12/29/2024 at 5:57 PM, Slick Nick said:

That oil is too thick for that temperature. Even 15-50 is outside the optimal range. Section 8 of your POH will list the proper oil grades. 20W-30 is what's recommended for below 10*F.

I fly in -30*C temps all the time. That's our best, "crisp" flying weather out here in western Canada. You will need to tape up your oil cooler. I run 2 strips of tin tape, cover HALF of the cooler (I do the bottom half) and it keeps the oil around 175*F. I've added a third strip, to cover 2/3 of the cooler before to experiment, that keeps the oil closer to 200*F which you will want if your plane has spent any time at all outdoors, but remove the last strip any time it's above about -10*C, and leave the other two in place.

My airplane is always stored in a heated hangar, so preheating is not an issue. If your plane is kept at all outside, when it's THAT cold, you could potentially end up doing hundreds of hours worth of engine wear in the first 30 seconds after startup if the engine is not thoroughly preheated. By the time you mess around with cowl blankets, plug in heaters, etc you're still only left with a lukewarm engine, frozen cabin, frosted up instruments and brittle plastics, in addition to a frost covered airplane and windshield, iced up control surfaces, etc. Don't forget that even things like the grease inside you wheel bearings and gear linkage can congeal, and put an enormous load on the gear and flap motors. Engine aside, you need to treat the rest of the airplane with care. Everything is brittle. My suggestion, just pay the fee and have it brought into a nice warm hangar the night before. Most places only charge $50 for a night.

I've got lots of hours on my Mooney flying in frozen temps, but starting off with a warm airplane is key. Airplanes absolutely love the cold air, but they hate "being" cold if that makes sense.

There isn’t any piston oil available below 15w50 isn’t it? Or is there some brand which I’ve never heard of?

[Shiroyuki]

So after roughly four hours of cruise, my engine was missfiring after landing if i tried to idle it during row out and taxi. It didn’t die, but was really miss firing, rpm was bouncing around 100rpm, manifold pressure also bouncing around. But if i throttle up a little to 1000rpm it started to run fine. I was leaning the full flight and on the ground properly this time and I’ve never seen something like this before.

the engine was idling just fine during run up before departure.

I’m suspecting lead fouling, since the CHT for all cylinders never went above 280F, any ideas?

@Slick Nick

[EricJ]

3 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

So after roughly four hours of cruise, my engine was missfiring after landing if i tried to idle it during row out and taxi. It didn’t die, but was really miss firing, rpm was bouncing around 100rpm, manifold pressure also bouncing around. But if i throttle up a little to 1000rpm it started to run fine. I was leaning the full flight and on the ground properly this time and I’ve never seen something like this before.

the engine was idling just fine during run up before departure.

I’m suspecting lead fouling, since the CHT for all cylinders never went above 280F, any ideas?

@Slick Nick

What does it do during a mag check?   If one or more plugs are fouled that should make it show up pretty easily.

[Shiroyuki]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

What does it do during a mag check?   If one or more plugs are fouled that should make it show up pretty easily.

I didn’t do a mag check on shut down… I was in a bit of hurry to shut down and run inside to use the washroom…

I’m going to do a thorough run up tomorrow morning, add some tcp to fuel, and see how it goes.

[Slick Nick]

45 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

So after roughly four hours of cruise, my engine was missfiring after landing if i tried to idle it during row out and taxi. It didn’t die, but was really miss firing, rpm was bouncing around 100rpm, manifold pressure also bouncing around. But if i throttle up a little to 1000rpm it started to run fine. I was leaning the full flight and on the ground properly this time and I’ve never seen something like this before.

the engine was idling just fine during run up before departure.

I’m suspecting lead fouling, since the CHT for all cylinders never went above 280F, any ideas?

@Slick Nick

Quite possible. Lead fouling of plugs will show up on a mag check. You need to lean it really aggressively in cold temps, I would even run it at peak EGT for a bit, see if that remedies it. If I recall you've been running it really rich for a whole lot of hours, you could have finally bridged a plug perhaps. 
 

How much of your oil cooler did you block? 280 on the cylinder head is pretty cold, what was your oil? 

Edited January 3 by Slick Nick

[dzeleski]

4 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

So after roughly four hours of cruise, my engine was missfiring after landing if i tried to idle it during row out and taxi. It didn’t die, but was really miss firing, rpm was bouncing around 100rpm, manifold pressure also bouncing around. But if i throttle up a little to 1000rpm it started to run fine. I was leaning the full flight and on the ground properly this time and I’ve never seen something like this before.

the engine was idling just fine during run up before departure.

I’m suspecting lead fouling, since the CHT for all cylinders never went above 280F, any ideas?

@Slick Nick

Could also very well be the intake gaskets leaking. Does it pop and bang during landing as well? Since it’s so cold those gaskets on the head or the intake could just be super brittle, mine were falling apart.

Heres what my IO360 sounded like when the gaskets were shot: 

Check page six here for the induction leak test: https://www.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2012-01_flight-test-profiles.pdf

[Shiroyuki]

8 hours ago, Slick Nick said:

Quite possible. Lead fouling of plugs will show up on a mag check. You need to lean it really aggressively in cold temps, I would even run it at peak EGT for a bit, see if that remedies it. If I recall you've been running it really rich for a whole lot of hours, you could have finally bridged a plug perhaps. 
 

How much of your oil cooler did you block? 280 on the cylinder head is pretty cold, what was your oil? 

I was only running rich for a few minutes in climb, and for the past 100 hour or so my plug always looks fine during oil change and annuals.

i blocked off about half, maybe a bit less like 40%. I doesn’t want to start with a big block and causes the engine to run too hot. I was cruising at 10000ft at WOT 2600rpm, and peak egt. OAT is -24

[Shiroyuki]

4 hours ago, dzeleski said:

Could also very well be the intake gaskets leaking. Does it pop and bang during landing as well? Since it’s so cold those gaskets on the head or the intake could just be super brittle, mine were falling apart.

Heres what my IO360 sounded like when the gaskets were shot: 

Check page six here for the induction leak test: https://www.savvyaviation.com/wp-content/uploads/articles_eaa/EAA_2012-01_flight-test-profiles.pdf

And are those gasket really that fragile? I had just over 100 hours on this engine and I suppose those gaskets was replaced during engine overhaul?

[Slick Nick]

20 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

I was only running rich for a few minutes in climb, and for the past 100 hour or so my plug always looks fine during oil change and annuals.

i blocked off about half, maybe a bit less like 40%. I doesn’t want to start with a big block and causes the engine to run too hot. I was cruising at 10000ft at WOT 2600rpm, and peak egt. OAT is -24

What do you do with mixture on descent and for landing? If you're sure it's not plug fouling, it could be a mechanical issue, or your idle mixture setting could be way off. Remember, that's not controlled by the mixture knob it's preset on the fuel servo by your mechanic.

[Shiroyuki]

Just now, Slick Nick said:

What do you do with mixture on descent and for landing? If you're sure it's not plug fouling, it could be a mechanical issue, or your idle mixture setting could be way off. Remember, that's not controlled by the mixture knob it's preset on the fuel servo by your mechanic.

I was running pretty lean on descent until very short final, which then I push the mixture known to about one inch from full rich.

my idle mixture was just adjusted this summer as well because it was running rich, showing a 200 rise. After my mechanic in Toronto made the adjustment, it’s only a slight rise of about 50 or so.

[Slick Nick]

12 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

I was running pretty lean on descent until very short final, which then I push the mixture known to about one inch from full rich.

my idle mixture was just adjusted this summer as well because it was running rich, showing a 200 rise. After my mechanic in Toronto made the adjustment, it’s only a slight rise of about 50 or so.

Idle mixture is a funny thing, because if it's set at a high elevation airport on a hot day, it will be much different than an airport at sea level on a cold day kinda thing. It's a compromise to get it dialed in for the conditions you fly in specifically. Worth maybe having it checked again however, along with your ignition system being diagnosed. An inflight mag-check can tell you a lot next time you fly. Look up the "Savvy in flight mag check".

[dzeleski]

40 minutes ago, Shiroyuki said:

And are those gasket really that fragile? I had just over 100 hours on this engine and I suppose those gaskets was replaced during engine overhaul?

They are really easy to not install correctly and pinch them causing an induction leak. If the engine runs well at higher power settings but idle is bad I would inspect those gaskets.

[jetdriven]

The paper gasket at the end of the pipe where it meets the flange seems to always leak. The Continental manual M-0 says to spray coat these gaskets with copper spray, but Lycoming doesnt specify sealant. We copper spray them, and they never leak, but the ones that aren't always leak.

[Shiroyuki]

Just got home from my trip.

This morning I did a run up and noticed nothing wrong with the engine. Idle was smooth and stable at 800rpm (100rpm higher but not a bid deal, it has been doing this since i got the plane). During both idle and run up, leaning will have the rpm rise slightly then drop. Mag check shows no roughness and engine monitors say all cylinders are firing correctly. After discussing it with my mechanic I decide to went on my way home, made a stop in winnipeg and got back with not further issue.

After both landing of the day, the engine was NOT running as rough as yesterday, but i was definitely rougher then usual. I did notice, if i add full rich mixture and boost pump on, it gets worse immediately, and if i lean it all the way to almost cut off, it will runs smoothly. I suppose it is a mixture issue then.

what i do not understand is, how could an mixture setting works fine before departure, with a thoroughly warmed up engine, but will cause it to run overly rich after landing?

Edited January 4 by Shiroyuki

[FoxMike]

Takeoff power needs to be reduced.  In the cold you will reach 100% power at less manifold pressure than the power chart shows.  

[takair]

Consider idling at 1000-1200 RPM, per the manual, especially in cold.  The idle mixture will change winter to summer.  You can find a reasonable mid setting.  I like to set the idle mixture for under 25rpm rise.  That way you don’t need to lean as aggressively on the ground.  As far as popping, sounds like you were good at 1000 rpm.  I always imagined the popping in mine was from heating of the fuel injector lines after flight, but could be slight intake leak…..  I might try Byron’s suggestion on my own plane.  I suppose the sniffle valve can also be a source of leak…

[Slick Nick]

10 hours ago, Shiroyuki said:

what i do not understand is, how could an mixture setting works fine before departure, with a thoroughly warmed up engine, but will cause it to run overly rich after landing?

Because the density of the air changed from your departure and landing airports. Mixture is dependent on the density of the air entering the engine.