What is it worth?

[caa0428]

Hi Everyone, 

New here, I grew up flying my father's M20K as a child, found an M20J locally but aircraft has been abandoned in a hanger since the last annual in 2013. Interior is falling apart, spinning the prop by hand shows some life of compression. But engine is sitting around 1600-1700 SMOH. Airframe has quite a few corrosion blisters and flaking paint. No smell of fuel in cabin, but after 13 years may be none left to smell.

Found owners contact and spoke with him and will be meeting this week. I am more than comfortable with a big project, and expect to just go Factory Overhauled unit if I will be flying with my family going foward. The list of parts needed just at a glance seems very costly. Avionics are aged, pucks need replacement, interior needs complete refurbish, paint and skin needs to be addressed at a minimum. Hoses and rubbers need replacing, brakes are seized, etc. I feel like if he were to sell it at a reasonable rate he'd have to invest a few bucks to get it airworthy at the very least.

My biggest question is what is a fair acceptable offer for something that has been sitting for so long? As to not over pay and/or offend the owner either.

 

*Just an update for anyone curious, owner and I are on 2 different planets, which was to be expected, sentimental value is an X factor just as much as corrosion. I don't see this one flying again anytime soon, after much thought I am not 100% sure a Mooney would've been a good fit for my mission with an ever expanding family, may look into something a bit larger and slower like a Cherokee 6 or Saratoga that maybe more practical in the long run. Thank to all that weighed in!*

 

Edited 17 hours ago by caa0428

[Rwsavory]

I'm not saying this to be flippant; the reality is that it's worth no more than the core value of the engine (maybe) and the few parts that can be scavenged from it. You will not come out financially even on this.  The likelihood is that you will be tens of thousands in the hole.

[MikeOH]

Questions for you to honestly answer for yourself:

Are you buying to fly or because you like long term projects?

Are you considering this to 'save money' by doing the work yourself?

IMHO, the ONLY reason to consider this is that you really don't have a need/desire to fly anytime soon and REALLY like to work on long term projects for the inherent satisfaction.

VERY unlikely you will come out financially better off even if you get at a 'fair' price (also unlikely with owners that hang on to stuff well past when they should have cut their losses).  You might luck out without much investment of time and money but I wouldn't bet on it.  Make certain you price out a factory overhaul these days...it's eye-watering!

EDIT: @Rwsavory was more to the point!

[ArtVandelay]

$20k.

[PT20J]

It’s gonna need an engine, likely a lot of the avionics are going to be DOA, paint and an interior plus who knows what else. I would figure $150K to bring it back doing a lot of work myself. That might be close to what it’s worth and you still have to put maybe 1000 hours of labor into it. 

[bigmo]

I kind of chuckled at your comment that’ll take him a few bucks to get it airworthy. Yes indeed. A few like $100000.

Id be interested in seeing what the 7-10 years were like leading to 2013. It’s very likely it’s been parked for 20 years now.

Im going to guess the owner thinks he’s sitting on a $130K J minus -$10k for the present situation. In reality, hes sitting on $10-20k worth of parts.

[Ragsf15e]

The above all assumes that the spar isn’t rusted.  If you’re seeing corrosion on the wings, that’s likely the tip of the iceberg.  You need to look under the back seat and inspect inside the wing.  It could need a new wing as corrosion can destroy a Mooney wing spar.  In that case, it’s worth noting.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, caa0428 said:

My biggest question is what is a fair acceptable offer for something that has been sitting for so long? As to not over pay and/or offend the owner either.

There was a thread on here a few years ago about someone who was gifted something older than a J--maybe a C or an E.  Anyway, by the time he was comfortable putting his family in it, he had spent $83,000.  That was quite a few years ago, so you could at least double that number today.  If I remember correctly, that didn't include an engine.  The guy was an A&P, and somehow the engine came back to life just by overhauling some accessories, new hoses, etc.  So the math is $0 purchase price + $83,000 in repairs = an airplane worth less than $83,000.

If you just want to spend a few years working on an airplane (and you can afford it) go for it.  If you ever expect to have something you can fly, look elsewhere.  Sorry to be the bearer of brutal truth.

[47U]

2 hours ago, caa0428 said:

The list of parts needed just at a glance seems very costly.

Welcome…

Where are you located?  Rags called it, in my opinion.  Even hangared, in anywhere but maybe the dry southwest, corrosion may be the deciding factor on whether or not this aircraft can be resurrected.  

Add up what you think the minimum expenditures for each system would be to get the airplane airworthy.  Engine, avionics, airframe… obviously you’re doing much of the work, otherwise the labor bill might be a deal killer by itself.  That’s your ace in the hole.

Once you have the expected resurrection cost totaled up, ask him what he thinks it’s worth.  Then hand him your estimate… once he recovers from the shock, then tell him what you think the labor bill will be.

Hopefully, he won’t need any smelling salts, or an AED.

[PT20J]

This is why airplanes like this get parted out. The parts are worth more than the whole because it costs so much to fix it. Even when people buy what looks like great airplanes that were well cared for and have a pre-purchase inspection done, they are frequently surprised by the cost of the first annual inspection by someone who has never seen the airplane before.

[0TreeLemur]

6 hours ago, caa0428 said:

My biggest question is what is a fair acceptable offer for something that has been sitting for so long? As to not over pay and/or offend the owner either.

The wisdom of what these folks have written in response to your question is priceless.   This is the value of MooneySpace.   A lot of experience here.  Take advantage of it.

[icurnmedic]

No way I would consider this if I wanted to fly in next 12 months. Or more maybe. You likely can find one current, that would cost less than the sum of your parts, time, and labor. Probably a lot less. 
‘Good luck with your journey!

[76Srat]

What you really should be asking us is "how much should I charge this guy to take it off his hands?"

[AJ88V]

A young A&P on my field bought an old C model (1963?) for $1000. Was a shame, I knew the owner but he fell out of flying and it sat on the tarmac for maybe a decade. I’d guess the engine core alone was worth $8000.

Anyway… He’s bringing her back to life. Some corrosion or cracking on the stub spar that I think he installed a doubler, new OH’d cylinders, and repaint some cabin tubing (SB208).  She’s now made one flight. Working on radios. Paint is awful - I wouldn’t fly it for fear of flow separation over the wing tops, but that’s fixable like everything else. Really nice to see an old bird pulled back from the brink.

[Bolter]

I will add the another harsh reality, I have seen these projects get stalled, and the result was money put into an airframe that is now diassembled, parts scattered, and even further from airworthiness.  Be prepared to do the job all at once.  Have the time and money allotted before starting anything like this.  

IMO, like many others, if you have the money for the total project, buy the airworthy plane you can afford instead, and start flying now.  

-dan

[Utah20Gflyer]

It’s probably worth more than it should be. There always seems to be someone around who thinks they can get a plane flying with what is a completely unrealistic estimate on what it will cost.   It’s probably worth 20k but if he put it up for 50k someone would think that’s a steal for a plane that could be worth 125k-150k in good condition.   This is what actually dooms planes to being parts.  The guy who buys it for 50 will never get it flying and then 10 years later it’s scrap.  
 

To me it would be worth 0 dollars because I have no interest in a multi year 6 figure project.  The only way I could see it being worth doing is if you enjoy working on airplanes more than you enjoy flying them.  

[67 m20F chump]

On 12/15/2024 at 5:59 PM, PT20J said:

It’s gonna need an engine, likely a lot of the avionics are going to be DOA, paint and an interior plus who knows what else. I would figure $150K to bring it back doing a lot of work myself. That might be close to what it’s worth and you still have to put maybe 1000 hours of labor into it. 

This is the truth.  I paid a reputable Mooney shop in Georgia to do a pre purchase of my airplane and bought it based on that recommendation.  They missed the corrosion in the spar cap when doing the 208 inspection (Ray Charles could have seen it)!

 

I replaced the wing with A&P supervision and upgraded the avionics.  I would consider myself lucky to get out what I have put into my plane.  It’s not worth the effort to bring them back.  Only do it as a labor of love knowing it’s a money pit.  My plan B was to take my engine and prop and build a RV something.  Unfortunately for my bank account I always wanted a Mooney.  Now I have a nice one.

[Slick Nick]

6 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

This is the truth.  I paid a reputable Mooney shop in Georgia to do a pre purchase of my airplane and bought it based on that recommendation.  They missed the corrosion in the spar cap when doing the 208 inspection (Ray Charles could have seen it)!

 

I replaced the wing with A&P supervision and upgraded the avionics.  I would consider myself lucky to get out what I have put into my plane.  It’s not worth the effort to bring them back.  Only do it as a labor of love knowing it’s a money pit.  My plan B was to take my engine and prop and build a RV something.  Unfortunately for my bank account I always wanted a Mooney.  Now I have a nice one.

Did you have any recourse with the shop who missed the corrosion?

[67 m20F chump]

I’m not the kind of guy to file a lawsuit.  I figured the best I could do is a refund of my pre purchase inspection and I didn’t even  try for that.  I now know where not to have work done.   The plane wasn’t expensive and I knew it needed work.  It would have been nice if they looked at the plane better but then again I could have too.  It’s flying now and it’s a nice one.  The time and money to get one back in shape is huge.  That’s what I’m trying to say.  Don’t underestimate what it takes.

[wombat]

15 minutes ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I’m not the kind of guy to file a lawsuit.  I figured the best I could do is a refund of my pre purchase inspection and I didn’t even  try for that. 

Thank you.  We need more people like you who are not out to recover every loss.  If the shop was to deliberately fail to do the work that would be one thing but a good faith effort is all we usually pay for and good faith efforts are not guarantees that nothing will go wrong.     

This is how I operate too.

[bigmo]

2 hours ago, 67 m20F chump said:

I’m not the kind of guy to file a lawsuit.  I figured the best I could do is a refund of my pre purchase inspection and I didn’t even  try for that.  I now know where not to have work done.   The plane wasn’t expensive and I knew it needed work.  It would have been nice if they looked at the plane better but then again I could have too.  It’s flying now and it’s a nice one.  The time and money to get one back in shape is huge.  That’s what I’m trying to say.  Don’t underestimate what it takes.

I think lots of us feel this way, but one counter perspective is that pursuing legal action is probably doing us all a favor. It sounds like there was indeed negligence or gross negligence. Is it a one off? Probably not. I mean if people keep handing them $X to do sub-par work and there is no accountability, why would they ever strive to do a proper job. It's akin to not tipping a waiter that does a terrible job. 

The waiter analogy is kind of silly, but if a mechanic is cutting corners on inspections, they probably are on maintenances well. And they need go. 

By no means meant as preachy, but sometimes there's a very valid reason that suits do us good as a community.

[MikeOH]

I think the moral of story is that of 'what is a pre-buy'.  The whole concept is a bit disingenuous if you think about it since, as a newbie buyer, you don't even know what you don't know.  That's why you are getting a pre-buy, right?  You think you know that you need a professional to check over the plane...but what you don't know is that YOU are suppose to tell the PROFESSIONAL what to look for???  Come on, how ridiculous is that?

In the instant case, if you don't know about tube corrosion in Mooneys (SB208) and you take it to a PROFESSIONAL mechanic that isn't familiar with Mooneys, and doesn't pull interior panels, then who is at fault here?  NO one, unfortunately!  Sadly, I'm not even sure paying for an annual at a shop would have prevented this!  You'd have to already know that this is a Mooney issue and be savvy enough to take it to a Mooney mechanic!

[Echo]

$10AMU's and you will take the financial burden off his hands.  He will do you a favor and say "No".  Everyone wins.  You don't overpay and he lives in bliss as a Mooney owner until he dies and others deal with it.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.

[Echo]

That was depressing.  Uplifting financial news: A Carerra GTS virtually identical to mine just sold for $60Amu's more than I paid in 2019.  

There are other ways to enjoy internal combustion without the pain.

[RolexRootBeerGMT]

On 12/15/2024 at 5:25 PM, caa0428 said:

Hi Everyone, 

New here, I grew up flying my father's M20K as a child, found an M20J locally but aircraft has been abandoned in a hanger since the last annual in 2013. Interior is falling apart, spinning the prop by hand shows some life of compression. But engine is sitting around 1600-1700 SMOH. Airframe has quite a few corrosion blisters and flaking paint. No smell of fuel in cabin, but after 13 years may be none left to smell.

Found owners contact and spoke with him and will be meeting this week. I am more than comfortable with a big project, and expect to just go Factory Overhauled unit if I will be flying with my family going foward. The list of parts needed just at a glance seems very costly. Avionics are aged, pucks need replacement, interior needs complete refurbish, paint and skin needs to be addressed at a minimum. Hoses and rubbers need replacing, brakes are seized, etc. I feel like if he were to sell it at a reasonable rate he'd have to invest a few bucks to get it airworthy at the very least.

My biggest question is what is a fair acceptable offer for something that has been sitting for so long? As to not over pay and/or offend the owner either.

 

Having had plenty of issues with planes that were up and running--this project would financially scare me.  And frankly, I would not want the hassle and all the delay in trying to bring it back to life.  Time is your most precious asset.  You might be different, but unless your budget is forcing you into such a project--avoid it.  As others might suggest, the value of the plane would be basically scrap value-engine core sort of stuff.  The idea of having to deal with an overhaul and dealing with avionics guys and APs for probably one year plus---sounds like nothing but an aggravation.  Perhaps its like I was told about Ferraris--the most expensive one is a cheap one.