Encore TKS FIKI performance in moderate icing?

[Beestforwardspeed]

Proud owner of a new (to me) 1998 Encore that was equipped almost exactly as I wanted, especially FIKI TKS certification. 

Haven't flown it in cold clouds yet (and will still approach such cautiously), but it got me wondering.......

How would such a plane likely perform in continuous moderate icing for lets say 20-30 minutes?  Obviously even with FIKI I would be working to get OUT of such conditions ASAP, but I'm still curious.

I know by definition light icing wouldn't be an issue for that long, and severe icing for that length of time would turn me into a lawn dart, but lets say textbook moderate ice for a 20-30 min continuous exposure?  

Edited October 28 by Beestforwardspeed

[Ragsf15e]

16 minutes ago, Beestforwardspeed said:

Proud owner of a new (to me) 1998 Encore that was equipped almost exactly as I wanted, especially FIKI TKS certification. 

Haven't flown it in cold clouds yet (and will still approach such cautiously), but it got me wondering.......

How would such a plane likely perform in continuous moderate icing for lets say 20-30 minutes?  Obviously even with FIKI I would be working to get OUT of such conditions ASAP, but I'm still curious.

I know by definition light icing wouldn't be an issue for that long, and severe icing for that length of time would turn me into a lawn dart, but lets say textbook moderate ice for a 20-30 min continuous exposure?  

Obviously I agree with what you said about immediately working to get out of moderate (climbing, descending, turning, etc) and not cruising in it… that being said, other airplanes I have flown with tks did well in moderate ice (maybe not that long) as long as you got the system on before you started picking up ice.  You will have random ice protrusions that begin to make some drag where the fluid isn’t getting (like maybe wingtips, top of tail, etc).

I’ll be interested to hear from someone who has actually flown a Mooney in moderate ice for a little while.
And just to say it again so that we’re all clear, deice systems on the small planes are mostly just for climbing through a layer or descending through a layer of ice. Not for cruising in. Neither of us is suggesting that.

Edited October 28 by Ragsf15e

[wombat]

I've flown my Mooney (with TKS) through some ice.   Not a lot so far, but some.

The TKS does not work the way I thought it would.  Ice still forms.  But then it breaks free rather than continuing to build up.  Across most of the wing and what I can see of the horizontal stabilizer, it never has built up more than about 1/16" if the TKS is on (and has been on for more than about 3 minutes before - This is important).  There are spots that build up more or take longer to shed around the stall strips but they are small and don't seem to negatively impact performance much.      At the speed that I've seen ice accumulate when I go through a squall with heavy of severe ice accumulation I wonder how well it'd work....  I have seen 1/4" build up in about 30 seconds.   I've never experiences prolonged flight in this sort of condition though.

The heaviest buildup I've let accumulate was about 3/8".  But this was WITHOUT having the TKS on.  I knew I was flying into clear air with temperatures above freezing soon so I just let it build.   My cruise speed at the same power setting was about 5 to 8 knots slower with the ice.   I would assume my stall speed was a lot higher too.

But for moderate, which is < 3 inches per hour?  That would be 1/4" every 5 minutes.... From what I have experienced while this would have slight negative effects on aircraft performance due to ice on the primary surfaces they would be relatively minor and the TKS would keep that up as long as the system was operational and you had fluid.    I'd start to get worried about the ice on the unprotected parts though....  Cowling, the elevator counterweight, antennas, etc.

 

Ice intensities as defined by the government:  https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2003/05/07/03-11237/icing-terminology

Icing Terminology and Definitions

Icing Intensities

Light

The rate of ice accumulation requires occasional cycling of manual deicing systems** to minimize ice accretions on the airframe. A representative accretion rate for reference purposes is 1/4 inch to one inch (0.6 to 2.5 cm) per hour * on the outer wing. The pilot should consider exiting the condition.***

Moderate

The rate of ice accumulation requires frequent cycling of manual deicing systems ** to minimize ice accretions on the airframe. A representative accretion rate for reference purposes is 1 to 3 inches (2.5 to 7.5 cm) per hour * on the outer wing. The pilot should consider exiting the condition as soon as possible.***

Heavy

The rate of ice accumulation requires maximum use of the ice protection systems to minimize ice accretions on the airframe. A representative accretion rate for reference purposes is more than 3 inches (7.5 cm) per hour * on the outer wing. Immediate exit from the conditions should be considered.***

Severe

The rate of ice accumulation is such that ice protection systems fail to remove the accumulation of ice and ice accumulates in locations not normally prone to icing, such as areas aft of protected surfaces and any other areas identified by the manufacturer. Immediate exit from the condition is necessary.****

 

[exM20K]

Congratulations on your purchase; you have one of the finest configurations available IMHO.

The icing definitions are all reference the capability of the systems to keep up, so they are not super helpful in general.

Light in one plane may be Moderate in another.  There are reference accretion rates in the definitions, but I'm not sticking around in icing to assess 1-3" per hour ice accretion.

As for your question, I had a non-FIKI 231 for a while and commuted between NYC and Boston.  It did fine, especially considering that many of the assigned altitudes were not open for negotiation.

SLD is a no-go.

Tops of cumulus clouds below freezing are abundant ice producers.

I'm not really worried about a 20-30 minute exposure but prefer to climb or descend to get out rather than push $100 of fluid into the atmosphere.  

You don't say where you are located, but maybe go poke your nose into some icing with good, warm WX below and see for yourself.

-dan

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Obviously I agree with what you said about immediately working to get out of moderate (climbing, descending, turning, etc) and not cruising in it… that being said, other airplanes I have flown with tks did well in moderate ice (maybe not that long) as long as you got the system on before you started picking up ice.  You will have random ice protrusions that begin to make some drag where the fluid isn’t getting (like maybe wingtips, top of tail, etc).

I’ll be interested to hear from someone who has actually flown a Mooney in moderate ice for a little while.
And just to say it again so that we’re all clear, deice systems on the small planes are mostly just for climbing through a layer or descending through a layer of ice. Not for cruising in. Neither of us is suggesting that.

Yes - try not to fly in ice.  But the tks works - but as described.  A word of operations - avoid ice if you can, but pre-run your tks before ever entering a cold cloud even if ice is not forecast because it takes like 5 min for the system to express lots of fluid from the wings so - pre-prime it - eg on the ground before you depart to punch through a layer, etc.  And run it monthly at least to keep it ready and healthy.

[GeeBee]

I have flown my Ovation several times in moderate ice. It works really good, but make sure you know your system is working 100% before you challenge it. As mentioned, turn it on well in advance, at least 10 preferably 15 minutes. Get your airplane "soaped up" and you will be impressed. That all said, don't go looking for it, but use it as an option. I always leave myself an "out", like knowing I can descend or turn around. Don't box yourself into a corner with TKS being your only out.

[dkkim73]

Maybe obvious, but if you're a bit behind the curve, you can also flip it to Max. Seems to fill out much quicker to "jump start" things. 

I've overall been amazed by how well it works. I have briefly been in accumulation that might be "moderate" rates based on the above, and it seemed to keep up. A few brief encounters incl. with some lighter returns definitely got my attention (and a course change). But my experience base is limited so I defer to the others here... Just like other things, it's nice to experiment first by dipping your toe in. E.g. less ice-prone conditions and more outs.

Some mentioned the tail. A FIKI bird should have panels on those leading edges. 

D

[Beestforwardspeed]

Thanks everyone, very helpful advice.  I am based in CT, but plan to primarily use the plane for trips to Newfoundland and even Labrador year-round---which was the driving factor for wanting FIKI.  Absolutely beautiful up there even with the bone chilling cold.

Additionally being able to cruise in the FL's meant I can cross the Cabot Straight between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland with a dry footprint.  

Edited October 29 by Beestforwardspeed

[wombat]

As far as I know, the CAV Ice systems are the only TKS option available for the Mooneys.   And performance and coverage wise, they are equivalent between the FIKI and non-FIKI systems.  Both systems cover the windscreen, prop, wings, and horizontal and vertical stabilizers.

Where the FIKI is different is that it's only certified on the 24V systems, it has a different thickness of titanium panel, and it has a backup pump.

 

 @CAV Ice please correct me if I'm saying something wrong here.

[exM20K]

47 minutes ago, wombat said:

As far as I know, the CAV Ice systems are the only TKS option available for the Mooneys.   And performance and coverage wise, they are equivalent between the FIKI and non-FIKI systems.  Both systems cover the windscreen, prop, wings, and horizontal and vertical stabilizers.

Where the FIKI is different is that it's only certified on the 24V systems, it has a different thickness of titanium panel, and it has a backup pump.

 

 @CAV Ice please correct me if I'm saying something wrong here.

There was a guy I met in the early 2000’s in Chicagoland who had a rocket with boots. I have no idea how he did that, and having flown booted twins for a bit, I’d never choose boots over TKS. 
 

CAV is the only source for TKS. 

-dan

[Fritz1]

Congratulations on the FIKI Encore, probably only two or three of those. The TKS works as advertized, run system on the ground once a month, 5 min on each main pump, 10 shots out of each windshield pump, watch the drip pattern on the ground, massage fluid into the dead spots with a sponge, prime system on the ground before you take off for an icing flight and top off again after priming until fluid runs out of overflow drain, use the high setting for priming before you enter an icing cloud, 2-3 min should do if system has been primed on the ground, leave yourself space below to drop out in case the system gets overwhelmed, runtime on high is 75 min which can go by quickly, set yourself an icing limit for each approach, when in doubt stay out of icing, study all icing forecasts, you will learn that they typically paint a worst case scenario, icing is everywhere, once airborne pireps on XM weather are extremely helpful, most of the time you only need the system for 5 min on the climb or 5 min on descent, learn the correlation between radar echos on nexrad and actual icing, with the system working properly some horns will form around the landing light lenses and around the stall strips, turn the system off when you exit the clouds and watch how long it takes for the horns to go away through sublimation. I have seen the worst icing around freezing in the tops of Cus, speed loss of 15KT, I have seen icing down to -30C. When in icing ask yourself every couple of minutes, what do I do right now if system fails. After using system lube all heim links in flight controls and landing gear with triflo, at annual watch where TKS fluid goes in tail and lube anything that moves. Washing the airplane thoroughly after TKS use cannot hurt. A well primed airplane will drip in hangar when pressure drops, once airplane stops dripping it is time to re-prime. When you fly in winter call ahead and make sure your destination has TKS. You may be amazed, I landed in Juneau AK, no TKS fluid, cannot be shipped by air, when in doubt keep a jug in the trunk, maybe even T connect the jug into the filler tube with a cutoff valve so you can add it in flight. Fly safe!

[dkkim73]

1 hour ago, Beestforwardspeed said:

Additionally being able to cruise in the FL's meant I can cross the Cabot Straight between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland with a dry footprint.  

Yes! I used to plan very carefully near large bodies of water... Or cold water. Glide range of land at all times.

The altitude is a great thing and good peace of mind. Including with high terrain. The turbo and FIKI combination offers a lot of buffer...

[NickG]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

As far as I know, the CAV Ice systems are the only TKS option available for the Mooneys.   And performance and coverage wise, they are equivalent between the FIKI and non-FIKI systems.  Both systems cover the windscreen, prop, wings, and horizontal and vertical stabilizers.

Where the FIKI is different is that it's only certified on the 24V systems, it has a different thickness of titanium panel, and it has a backup pump.

 

 @CAV Ice please correct me if I'm saying something wrong here.

I believe I asked @CAV Ice the same question a few months ago. I think the panels are the same thickness. Primary difference is backup pump and heated stall warning system. Plus I think (I could be wrong) FIKI needs dual alternators, TKS not.

i have a 94 O with TKS. Have used it occasionally before I got icing. Glad to have it, but it’s only a way to buy time so I can get out of icing asap.

[wombat]

10 hours ago, NickG said:

 Plus I think (I could be wrong) FIKI needs dual alternators, TKS not.

I don't think you are wrong.   

[dkkim73]

12 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

when in doubt keep a jug in the trunk, maybe even T connect the jug into the filler tube with a cutoff valve so you can add it in flight.

I have wondered about that. Some have opined that the tank sizing is to keep you from being too aggressive or cavalier, but it would not seem to be a bad thing to have an emergency backup. The filler system is open-topped and gravity fed, so I wouldn't imagine it would cause any issue if you added a way to drip fluid into it. 

 

[Fritz1]

judgement call, hard where to draw the line, the system is very powerful, once you have figured out that it really works run time becomes the limiting factor, 150 min low, 75 min high, figure a blended max run time of 90 min or 1.5h, you want to land with a reasonable reserve that gives you 0.5h blended run time and 1h reserve, 45 min blended run time is already stretching it, the end of the icing better be close. You can gain some by cycling the system on and off on low and watch the accretion rate, most icing is slow and benign until it it not. Fly safe!

[exM20K]

14 hours ago, Fritz1 said:

When you fly in winter call ahead and make sure your destination has TKS. You may be amazed, I landed in Juneau AK, no TKS fluid, cannot be shipped by air, when in doubt keep a jug in the trunk, maybe even T connect the jug into the filler tube with a cutoff valve so you can add it in flight. Fly safe!

+1 on the check ahead for fluid.

Dunno about refilling in-flight, though.  A friend flies a Hawker with TKS, and the fill is inside the entry door.  It is the bane of his existence, what with spills, dribbles, etc inside the cabin.  The stuff is just plain nasty.  It's generally not too difficult to climb or descend to a non-icing altitude, and the icing models are a big help there.

-dan

[CAV Ice]

@Beestforwardspeed this is a lot of information for me to post about, as it would end up being quite lengthy.  I will send you a PM with my number.

 

[NickG]

2 hours ago, exM20K said:

+1 on the check ahead for fluid.

Dunno about refilling in-flight, though.  A friend flies a Hawker with TKS, and the fill is inside the entry door.  It is the bane of his existence, what with spills, dribbles, etc inside the cabin.  The stuff is just plain nasty.  It's generally not too difficult to climb or descend to a non-icing altitude, and the icing models are a big help there.

-dan

I fly with a 5gallon container of TKS fluid int he cargo area which doubles as ballast.

[geoffb]

Temperature seems to have a big impact on performance.  At -5C mine seems to clear ice pretty well.  At -15C it seems less effective.  If I enter icing without the unit running and primed and I get a buildup, it can take a while to clear, especially in those below -10C conditions.  So, bite the bullet and get that $25/gal fluid running before you enter the clouds.  I will carry an extra jug if I think I may see ice on both outbound and inbound trips.

I've got an inadvertent system with hot prop.

[Shiroyuki]

As a new 77J owner I’ve never flown with TKS system before, and it is my ultimate goal to own a FIKI late model K.

For my job I fly a dash 8 100 with boot. There’s a total of 6 sections of boots and each blows for six seconds. In fast mode, after each boot is cycled, it was take a 24 seconds down time. So it’s a one minute cycle. I also fly in the area that’s possibly have the worst icing, northern Ontario.

 

From what I heard TKS works really well for slower airplane like caravan, so I suppose it can handle a reasonable amount of ice.

 

Most icing don’t build very fast and many forecasted moderate icing on Canadian GFA is barely even trace ice. Worst icing layer is usually not very thick and I imagine for a turbocharged Mooney you would have no problem getting over it. As long as you don’t fly into any SLD or freezing rain forecast, top of active TCU, or a heavily precipiting cold front, my experience it the ice is usually light and very manageable. Most of the time when ice is accumulating fast, you can hear and see water droplets hitting your windshield, even without SLD or FZRA forecast. For us we usually check the accumulation again and punch through, but I imagine that would be a great sign for smaller airplane to decide to turn around.

Be fearful of freezing rain though, I’ve flown into some crap that I picked up 2 inch of ice (shown on windshield wiper’s ice detection post) in one approach, roughly four minutes. That would not end very well for any smaller planes.

keep your speed fast and be vigilant, that’s all.

[Ibra]

Assuming it’s well maintained and properly run, the TKS/FIKI does great job for 15min-30min of moderate ice (we usually find in weak fronts or light stratus), you do lose some speed (~10kts) and you end up burning more fuel 

Some caveats,

* The engine can run rough or quits, it gets your attention, if it goes off over ocean or terrain it’s gameover: going for forced landing with iced airframe on high stall speed without touching flaps? 

* You still get lot of ice on tail surfaces, it won’t go away with de-ice on rudder/elevator and it’s not easily visible (one may argue that +1 inch of ice on elevator need hand flying with PhD in tail stall recovery) 

* What start as light or moderate icing can go into splash mode that overwhelm TKS/FIKI systems 

* Another worry is getting high voltage or electrical loads it’s hard to decide which electrics need to go off in clouds or at night…

* You always need a go out by turning or by descending into clear air 

The only reason why I may stick more around is 1/ hanging into ATC system while sorting out plan B in next 15min and 2/ I know I will be out of the mess in next 15min. If these takes more than 15min, I take urgent action (more than 20min in moderate ice on TKS/FIKI is likely relying on hope or luck than an actual strategy)

On clean wing Mooney without TKS/FIKI, replace that 15min with 30 seconds 

Edited November 2 by Ibra

[exM20K]

@Ibra have you checked the flow rate on your tail surfaces? As a sharper shape, they are more efficient ice collector than are the wings, but early and aggressive use of the system should keep the tail clean.

-dan

[Ibra]

I will re-check the flow on the tail surfaces from looking around on ground run it seems working OK

The leading edge of elevator is usually clean I do see more and more go over top and low of elevator, I am not sure how TKS is effective o the elevator even if the propeller and wing can keep up? it's the sort of unknown that makes longer flights in moderate ice uncomfortable even if wings looks ok...

Edited November 2 by Ibra

[dkkim73]

On a recent flight, first in a while to see ice, I ran TKS and saw some patchy areas. So, reading all the threads,I ran the system on the ground (windshield pumps first to prime), them high, then low. Wiped all the leading edges with a soaked rag multiple times. 

The hardest to assess is the vertical stab, since it's oriented along gravity and the fluid runs down... Then into the empennage boot, so you can't even gauge the drips! Nonetheless, the tail does seem to have a lot of flow as Dan pointed out. 

Reading also that fluid gets old, I am intentionally running the tank down low. How low do you guys go? If it safe to run the pumps out? (I think the fluid provides some lubrication)