Airline pilots input

[NewMoon]

My nephew is thinking of a career as an airline pilot. I can't give him any advice on the supply and demand stats of the industry over the next 10 years.

Was hoping the group could offer up a few names of folks I could get some input from. 

Appreciate any input. 

[Slick Nick]

I'm a 737 Captain for a major airline here in Canada. Not sure your location, or if any advice I could provide would be relevant, but ask away I'll do my best to at least point you in the right direction. Feel free to send a PM if you'd prefer.

[Pinecone]

NO ONE can tell you what the industry will do over the next 10 years.  If they could, they would be billionaires from investing with that knowledge.

That would also have required predicting 9/11 and 2008 crash and COVID.  Those hit the industry pretty hard.

There is also the medical issue.   To start, can he get a 1st class medical?  A lot of the younger generation are running into issues due an ADD diagnosis and meds.   

[MikeOH]

What are your nephew's reasons for considering an airline pilot career?

Back when I was 17 and learning to fly my CFI tried to push me in that direction.  Having read aviation publications since I was 12 I already understood the 'ups and downs' of an airline career, living out of a suitcase, being away from family.  The potential for 'big bucks' and flying  the 'big iron' just didn't outweigh what I viewed as the downsides.

Just make sure your nephew understands all the pros/cons.

[GeeBee]

I spent 40 years in the industry. I retired off the A330 and I loved every minute of it. To make it worthwhile it must be something you want to do and not think of it as a job. I never worked a day in my life. 6 years after retirement I still have dreams in my sleep of flying transport airplanes. If you are not sure, it is going to be a job. If you are sure (and I was from 5 years old) it is a living dream. I survived 5 years of furlough, 1 near bankruptcy, 1 real bankruptcy, 3 mergers. I have two uniforms in my closet and I would not change a thing. Pay? Who cares when you love your job, but my retirement placed me in the top 3% of Americans. Can't beat that.

Let me add, my first wife had pancreatic cancer and thanks to my airline who put out over 2 million for her she never wanted for a thing. No insurance arguments, no "if only's" they just wrote the checks. My first Christmas with my second wife I spent in Accra, Ghana. Not where I wanted to be, but you have to take the good with the bad, because the bad, ain't that bad.

[KSMooniac]

I think some old advice is still very pertinent for those looking at a flying career today... have a solid Plan B in case of a greater macro disruptor like Covid, 9/11, etc. as well as a medical issue that might end your flying career.  Many/most flying jobs still require a 4-year degree, so it is wise to have a meaningful degree that can be used to generate income in the event of a life change as opposed to medieval gender studies or similar.  Failing that, some sort of "side-hustle" or entrepreneurial avenue that might be compatible with a flying career might be a great option.   Perhaps the side hustle is also aviation related, perhaps it might be a boring business like a vending machine route, a car wash, or laundromat operation.  Starting those kinds of hustles early can help fund the time-building too.  

[MikeOH]

29 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I spent 40 years in the industry. I retired off the A330 and I loved every minute of it. To make it worthwhile it must be something you want to do and not think of it as a job. I never worked a day in my life....If you are not sure, it is going to be a job. ... I survived 5 years of furlough, 1 near bankruptcy, 1 real bankruptcy, 3 mergers. I have two uniforms in my closet and I would not change a thing. Pay? Who cares when you love your job...

^^^ THIS ^^^^ should be required reading for anyone considering an airline career.

Very well said.

[Ragsf15e]

You also need to consider how you get the magic 1500 hours.  Paying $200/hour for all that gets you zero turbine time and not much twin or complex, and it costs a whole lot.  I see people take 3 routes these days - instructing, cargo/crop dusting/banner, and the military.  None of those options is easy.  CFI might be the quickest if you’re in a busy school but it’s not easy.  Military requires 10 years after training but it’s top notch flying, training and it pays well.  Obviously military isn’t for everyone.  If a person likes the thought of military flying, I think that’s a good option.  If not, I recommend an aviation four year college like Embry Riddle or Central Washington or North Dakota.  You get a degree, CFI, good training, and some experience.

I highly recommend thinking through the route to ATP prior to starting flying if you’re doing it as a career.

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, GeeBee said:

I spent 40 years in the industry. I retired off the A330 and I loved every minute of it. To make it worthwhile it must be something you want to do and not think of it as a job. I never worked a day in my life. 6 years after retirement I still have dreams in my sleep of flying transport airplanes. If you are not sure, it is going to be a job.

OTOH, I do know a few airline pilots that cannot wait for retirement age.  They can't leave the money, but hate the job.

I looked going airlines in the 80s and decided that it was not for me.

Different strokes for different folks.

[Will.iam]

If he is just starting and he wants to get CB award right off the bat, Go glider for first 30 hours then 10 hours airplane to get your 40 hours for private license as time in glider counts and thermal soaring building time is way cheaper than avgas burning. Also you can get your glider license a year earlier than airplane so he is already almost a year ahead in the game building those hours compared to his peers and just as soon as he gets his privates get his commercial and he can turn around and fly the tow plane to launch other glider pilots and get paid to get hours thus getting off the parents funding as early as possible for ultimate CB award status. 

[CL605]

I started in general aviation, then became  a CFI, then corporate (King Air 200) then I was hired at a major. 29 years later I retired as an Airbus captain. Now I fly corporate/135 on a Challenger 605. I miss the airline and have to consciously avoid thinking about it too much or I forget how lucky I am to still be flying jets. For me, airline flying was awesome and paid for an airport home and several aircraft over the years. Whatever investment you make, it pays off many times over. The people who "tolerate" it are (in my experience) not really aviation people. If you don't love aviation, find something else to do. If you do love it, then go for it and hopefully you will end up at an airline. That said, corporate flying jobs still pay well and and many find it a satisfying career. Best of luck to your nephew!

[EricJ]

6 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

You also need to consider how you get the magic 1500 hours.  Paying $200/hour for all that gets you zero turbine time and not much twin or complex, and it costs a whole lot.  I see people take 3 routes these days - instructing, cargo/crop dusting/banner, and the military.  None of those options is easy.  CFI might be the quickest if you’re in a busy school but it’s not easy.  Military requires 10 years after training but it’s top notch flying, training and it pays well.  Obviously military isn’t for everyone.  If a person likes the thought of military flying, I think that’s a good option.  If not, I recommend an aviation four year college like Embry Riddle or Central Washington or North Dakota.  You get a degree, CFI, good training, and some experience.

I highly recommend thinking through the route to ATP prior to starting flying if you’re doing it as a career.

I have two friends who are just starting commercial aviation careers and building time.   One is flying right seat in King Airs flying doctors around, and the other is flying Caravans for a tour/charter operation.    They're both enjoying what they're doing, and both building turbine time pretty quickly and getting paid for it.    One is on an established path to an airline, and the other is just sorting out what he wants to do which is most likely not airline.    I was in a conversation with one of them and a guy who flies for NetJets, which sounded pretty interesting and accessible as well.   It looks like there are maybe a few more interesting paths these days than in the past.

 

[Pinecone]

Also the boom of a few years ago is softening.   And someone just getting started is looking at the job market in a few years minimum.

So you need to step things up to make your resume rise to the top.

[dkkim73]

17 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Military requires 10 years after training but it’s top notch flying, training and it pays well.  Obviously military isn’t for everyone.  If a person likes the thought of military flying, I think that’s a good option.  

A lot of people see the go-fast stuff with the military, and some astutely notice the pay, training, and job security. But something a person who hasn't been around it might not weigh sufficiently is the people aspect. There is real value in being part of a team, being around good people, and getting outside of the normal orbits. It can be a real eye-opener and threshold experience for a younger person in seeing just what you can achieve. Not speaking to Rags here, obviously, but in general about advice to the young man. 

A senior flight doc I spoke with when considering things years ago summed it up, "all my good friends are in the guard". 

Hard to know how to counsel specific people. It's not something someone else should choose for you... but exposure is good, and fewer people get it these days. So maybe planting the idea is good. And a caveat: I've been out of the swim since 2016, and can't speak to all the cultural and politics-related changes, though I've heard an occasional earful from former colleagues. 

*Speaking of the guard: There are fewer slots for pilots than active duty, but if you can score one, you can build a substantive military career concurrent with other pursuits (many choose to fly airlines). Also choose your platform and mission up-front, unless they convert you to RPAs the next year, that is...

[Ragsf15e]

10 hours ago, EricJ said:

I have two friends who are just starting commercial aviation careers and building time.   One is flying right seat in King Airs flying doctors around, and the other is flying Caravans for a tour/charter operation.    They're both enjoying what they're doing, and both building turbine time pretty quickly and getting paid for it.    One is on an established path to an airline, and the other is just sorting out what he wants to do which is most likely not airline.    I was in a conversation with one of them and a guy who flies for NetJets, which sounded pretty interesting and accessible as well.   It looks like there are maybe a few more interesting paths these days than in the past.

 

Yeah I agree those ones are good.  They are tough to come by though.  Try applying for a turbine pic job hauling pax with 400 hours and zero turbine time.  That’s a tough sell.  Now flying a caravan for a fedex feeder as a pic is definitely possible.  The other one you mentioned is a terrific path if you can find it - sic in a turbine airplane that requires it.  That’s key though, if you’re flying right seat in a single pilot airplane, you’re not a required crew member so you should only log the time you’re actually flying.  If you can get on a Lear or other two crew member airplane, that’s solid.  Again, can be a tough sell but it does happen.

[Ragsf15e]

12 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

A lot of people see the go-fast stuff with the military, and some astutely notice the pay, training, and job security. But something a person who hasn't been around it might not weigh sufficiently is the people aspect. There is real value in being part of a team, being around good people, and getting outside of the normal orbits. It can be a real eye-opener and threshold experience for a younger person in seeing just what you can achieve. Not speaking to Rags here, obviously, but in general about advice to the young man. 

A senior flight doc I spoke with when considering things years ago summed it up, "all my good friends are in the guard". 

Hard to know how to counsel specific people. It's not something someone else should choose for you... but exposure is good, and fewer people get it these days. So maybe planting the idea is good. And a caveat: I've been out of the swim since 2016, and can't speak to all the cultural and politics-related changes, though I've heard an occasional earful from former colleagues. 

*Speaking of the guard: There are fewer slots for pilots than active duty, but if you can score one, you can build a substantive military career concurrent with other pursuits (many choose to fly airlines). Also choose your platform and mission up-front, unless they convert you to RPAs the next year, that is...

Yeah the people and sense of belonging to something bigger are some of the reasons I ended up staying for 20.  Never intended that.  They are also intangibles and hard to describe to others from the outside.  I didn’t even recognize as much as I should have until I got out.

Edited October 17 by Ragsf15e

[BlueSky247]

I would third the advice to make sure that a first class medical is achievable. Army brat here, dad flew Hueys, Mohawks and all kinds of aircraft. I grew up loving aviation, but thanks to a significant hearing loss from birth, knew I would never be able to do it as a career. So I'd really make sure he doesn't have anything there. 

 

Also @KSMooniac advice on developing other skills/income options is pure gold for any profession. Especially ones that are service-based. There are chronic shortages in all of the trades and that's not going away any time soon.

[Mcstealth]

On a slightly Mooney related note, Schreiner University here in Kerrville started up a four year aviation degree. I'm sure it's no Embry Riddle, but hey, their big hangar is the closest to the Mooney factory.

https://schreiner.edu/academics/aviation-studies/

The University obviously takes care of all the academic studies, but a different company is contracted to handle the flying part.