How to get insurance for flying across the pond?

[Beestforwardspeed]

Hey everyone, first time poster long time lurker.  

I'm planning a big adventure flying across the pond in the foreseeable future (likely summer of 2026), but outside chance of 2025.  Live in the NE US.

Background:  ATP AMEL with 3500 total time, 1800 multi and 200 hrs of Mooney time, mostly in 201s.  No violations, accidents, incidents or any insurance claims--knock on wood.

What I'm looking at doing is planning a trip to Norway via the far N route (CYFB-BGBW-BIKF-ENBR) and back.  

Considering making the trip in a FIKI Bravo or Acclaim to give myself a bit more range, and wx flex, even though I'll allow plenty of time (up to 6 weeks) for the trip to make sure get there/home itis is not a factor.

So here's the question....

How likely will I be able to get "single trip" insurance coverage for such with my background?  Ive not done any prior North Atlantic crossings before, but I have flown over similar harsh territory in far N Quebec, Labrador, and will be flying as far as CYFB next month.  

I know it will be expensive but with 1-2 years time I can start saving.  How much $$ would I be looking at for an aircraft with a $300K hull, and what's the best way to get 1 trip coverage without any prior crossings?

 

 

[Schllc]

When I looked into this, none of the insurers I spoke to were willing to provide a quote to someone who had not made the crossing before.

I'm sure it could be done, but  I resigned myself to the reality that I would probably do it without insurance.  

Unless you want to hire a qualified pilot to fly the route with you..

[Beestforwardspeed]

6 minutes ago, Schllc said:

When I looked into this, none of the insurers I spoke to were willing to provide a quote to someone who had not made the crossing before.

I'm sure it could be done, but  I resigned myself to the reality that I would probably do it without insurance.  

Unless you want to hire a qualified pilot to fly the route with you..

Does making the crossing as a legacy airline pilot in an aircraft with 2 kerosene burning engines at FL350 count?

Edited August 12, 2024 by Beestforwardspeed

[Fly Boomer]

20 minutes ago, Beestforwardspeed said:

will I be able to get "single trip" insurance

Contact @Parker_Woodruff.  He is a broker used by many on this forum.

[Parker_Woodruff]

25 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Contact @Parker_Woodruff.  He is a broker used by many on this forum.

Thanks for the tag.  My agency typically is not very well set up to do this but I know agents who are better equipped for this and happy to send recommendations via PM.

 

However, for those taking notes, we can many times aircraft owners get insurance as soon as they get into Canadian Airspace when moving their N-registered aircraft to the USA from Europe.

[Schllc]

2 hours ago, Beestforwardspeed said:

Does making the crossing as a legacy airline pilot in an aircraft with 2 kerosene burning engines at FL350 count?

One would think that this should make a difference, but insurance does not always follow what seems like the obvious logical path...

[Hank]

5 hours ago, Schllc said:

. . . none of the insurers . .,. were willing to provide a quote to someone who had not made the crossing before.

You can't do it until after you've done it.

That's quite a conundrum, it seems that the insurers are putting the cart before the horse. 

[Schllc]

Just now, Hank said:

You can't do it until after you've done it.

That's quite a conundrum, it seems that the insurers are putting the cart before the horse. 

The irony was not lost on me….

[Pinecone]

That is the insurance world.

When I started in my profession (occupational health and safety) there was no Professional Liability insurance available.

The reason?  There had never been a successful claim (in almost 100 years of the profession) so they would not right insurance, as they had no idea of the possible payouts.

Hmmm, how about NONE, as per almost the last 100 years.

[Parker_Woodruff]

@PineconeProfessional liability insurance is becoming a pretty big deal in aviation, especially as airframes age.

There are lots of prebuys where existing structural issues are supposedly missed and then found on the next service or annual inspection.  But an occurrence has not happened...so a typical general liability policy will not respond.

[Beestforwardspeed]

Adding on....

What I'm frustrated by too is that my insurance is perfectly OK with me flying wayyy up north into the Canadian Arctic Archipelago (Baffin Island, even Resolute Etc--if one can find 100LL of course!!) way up to 70-75 deg latitude or more, in territory that is every bit as harsh, dangerous, and unpredictable weather and terrain wise as Greenland, (and worse than Iceland), with alternates very sparse and flying conditions just as challenging.

Why is one is perfectly OK with them but the other not when they are equally require one to mitigate risk??

Edited August 13, 2024 by Beestforwardspeed

[Schllc]

Because logic doesn’t always factor into the equation…

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

1 hour ago, Beestforwardspeed said:

Adding on....

What I'm frustrated by too is that my insurance is perfectly OK with me flying wayyy up north into the Canadian Arctic Archipelago (Baffin Island, even Resolute Etc--if one can find 100LL of course!!) way up to 70-75 deg latitude or more, in territory that is every bit as harsh, dangerous, and unpredictable weather and terrain wise as Greenland, (and worse than Iceland), with alternates very sparse and flying conditions just as challenging.

Why is one is perfectly OK with them but the other not when they are equally require one to mitigate risk??

Some policies actually restrict the northern Latitudes of Canada.  Guarantee you there are many more that would try crossing the oceans if it wasn't excluded than those who will go way north into Canada.

[Beestforwardspeed]

1 hour ago, Parker_Woodruff said:

Some policies actually restrict the northern Latitudes of Canada.  Guarantee you there are many more that would try crossing the oceans if it wasn't excluded than those who will go way north into Canada.

Fortunately my flying club policy doesn’t exclude any part of Canada.

Such breathtaking scenery up there especially on Baffin Island they don’t know what they are missing!  
 

 

Edited August 13, 2024 by Beestforwardspeed

[FlyingDude]

How about you contact an aircraft ferrying agency (some are even on Facebook) and then pay them to ferry your plane but they hire you for the job?

[Hank]

1 hour ago, FlyingDude said:

How about you contact an aircraft ferrying agency (some are even on Facebook) and then pay them to ferry your plane but they hire you for the job?

You'd need a commercial certificate, and to be named on their insurance. Someone will be along and talk about Part 134.5 vs Charter since it's your airplane.

[GeeBee]

When I was young, and needed the hours I had no problem flying KOAK to PHNL wearing a gumbie around my waist, more fuel than was comfortable with, a wobble pump in clear tubing and LORAN A unit sitting on top of the tank to my right (which I never used). I guess if the effort really floats your raft, go for it. Me, I was over it once I had bleed air and an APU. It is just another flight at a higher risk level.

[Beestforwardspeed]

On 8/13/2024 at 9:04 PM, GeeBee said:

When I was young, and needed the hours I had no problem flying KOAK to PHNL wearing a gumbie around my waist, more fuel than was comfortable with, a wobble pump in clear tubing and LORAN A unit sitting on top of the tank to my right (which I never used). I guess if the effort really floats your raft, go for it. Me, I was over it once I had bleed air and an APU. It is just another flight at a higher risk level.

I know what you are saying, its unquestionably more risky than flying for a $100 hamburger day VFR over Kansas......but I'm still farrrrrr more likely to be KILLED FROM CANCER or other disease than from crossing the pond in a piston single, as long as I make conservative decisions and not succumb to get-there-itis (luckily I'm in a job that would give me 4-5 weeks off).  And I say that as an early 40's guy with no prior health issues.  

Ive already lost 20+ friends and acquaintances due to cancer.  I would MUCH rather die in the icy North Atlantic sitting in a raft at 30 west, having just done what I love.... than in a hospital bed getting chemotherapy.  Obviously, I hope to not die from either of those.

Edited August 30, 2024 by Beestforwardspeed

[GeeBee]

Dying by any means is highly overrated. Nobody in their right mind goes, “on their own terms” but rather the terms dictated by their circumstances. 

[Flash]

@Beestforwardspeed I was able to get insurance as a first-timer, but that was 21 years ago, so I don't have any useful advice on your main point. However, I do have a routing recommendation. Either (1) land at BGBW and then go to BGJN, or (2) go straight from CYFB to BGJN, which is listed as an international airport. I did (1) because I had no idea about BGJN until I met a Greenland Air pilot at BGBW who told me about it and said I'd be making a huge mistake if I stayed in Kangerlussuaq instead of going to Ilulissat (and now I'm paying it forward). I also spent a night on the east coast of Greenland at BGKK; Kulusuk is a pretty fishing village but not a must-see like the ice fjord at BGJN. The midnight cruise through the ice fjord near BGJN is likely to be the best non-flying part of your trip.

[Beestforwardspeed]

On 8/30/2024 at 10:17 PM, Flash said:

@Beestforwardspeed I was able to get insurance as a first-timer, but that was 21 years ago, so I don't have any useful advice on your main point. However, I do have a routing recommendation. Either (1) land at BGBW and then go to BGJN, or (2) go straight from CYFB to BGJN, which is listed as an international airport. I did (1) because I had no idea about BGJN until I met a Greenland Air pilot at BGBW who told me about it and said I'd be making a huge mistake if I stayed in Kangerlussuaq instead of going to Ilulissat (and now I'm paying it forward). I also spent a night on the east coast of Greenland at BGKK; Kulusuk is a pretty fishing village but not a must-see like the ice fjord at BGJN. The midnight cruise through the ice fjord near BGJN is likely to be the best non-flying part of your trip.

Wow that sounds fantastic thanks for the rec!  
 

Who did you use for insurance? 

If things have changed I might consider purchasing a less expensive Mooney and take the risk of self insuring for hull.  

Is hull loss or liability the big reason many don’t want to insure first timers?  I would surely think its hull.  

Edited September 6, 2024 by Beestforwardspeed