Alpha Aviation shoulder harness on M20F - panel restriction?

[Flyler]

I'm looking into purchasing an inertial reel shoulder harness for the left seat and fixed for the right.  In scrolling through the Alpha Aviation description, it has this scary snippet:

https://alphaaviation.com/mooney-m20-front-inertial-reel-replacement-upgrade-lift-lever/

Of course mine is a 1968 M20F.  Has anyone run into this issue and still had success?  It seems like it worth a fair bit of hassle to get the safety upgrade, but what amount of hassle are we talking about here?  I would appreciate any insight or personal experience.

[TheAv8r]

I have not found it impossible on my M20E, but what they are talking about is there's a clamp that has to go around the steel tube that's in between the pilot-side window and the rear passenger window. The bolt then goes through the reel box and through that clamp. Getting the clamp enough clearance to get it around that tube is a royal PITA and a lot of times the easier way to do it is remove the headliner and start there and work it all the way down. I would guess they're saying on some planes there's literally such a tight fit between the tube and the skin there's not enough space to ever work that clamp in. 

I covered the install in a thread here: 

 

[MikeOH]

Yes, it's possible since I managed to install mine.  COMPLETE ROYAL PITA!!  I had to remove the headliner,  open the clamp, force it around the tube, and then 'slide' it down to the proper position.  'Slide' is a generous term...forcibly wiggle it into position is more accurate. Unfortunately, the number of hours I spent before settling on this 'solution' is staggering! I'm sure I spent 8 hours over a few days installing the pilot's side clamp.  Passenger side took about an hour.  If you do this yourself be prepared, bring cold beer, and don't lose your patience!  Inventing new 'words' helps, as well.  If you pay someone....be prepared for a BIG bill.

Was it worth it...yeah, I just don't feel comfortable flying without a shoulder harness.

[Shadrach]

It worked out fine on my 67F.  I would encourage you to do it in the summer time. I caused a small crack in left middle window. I am pretty sure had I done the install in June instead of January, it would not have been a problem.  It took me a full afternoon to do both sides. IIRC the passenger side was actually easier. once the straps are in place you can use a fastener to make witness marks on the back side of the pillar trim for precise drilling.  Make sure you have everything where you want it first.

It's easy enough to remove the door trim to see what your dealing with before committing.

[Flyler]

Thank you all so much!  I think this will be in my window of "that wasn't so bad" after having spent the early years of my life as an auto mechanic.

 

I've ordered an inertial for the left seat (seems like a good idea for the fuel tank selector) and fixed for passenger side.  If I run into any undocumented issues I'll be sure to share for the next guy.

[65MooneyPilot]

Don’t forget to weld the nut onto the clamp as some of the really sharp people did. You will be glad you did when you install the seatbelt.

[Flyler]

20 minutes ago, 65MooneyPilot said:

Don’t forget to weld the nut onto the clamp as some of the really sharp people did. You will be glad you did when you install the seatbelt.

My mind, body, and soul thanks you for this reminder 

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Flyler said:

My mind, body, and soul thanks you for this reminder 

I installed mine without doing that but if you have the capability, it probably makes things easier.

[MikeOH]

I just used a piece of tape to hold the nut until I got the bolt started. Welding seems overkill.

[M20F]

For my own curiosity why an inertial wheel for the left seat?  Mine is fixed and adjusted for me and it comes off when cruise checklist is complete (about 26’ AGL which is 25’ after gear retraction).  
 
Would seem right seat with varying passengers would benefit more.  I love nothing more than sitting in a 150F plane helping my “co-pilot” navigate adjusting the should strap.  

[Shadrach]

5 minutes ago, M20F said:

For my own curiosity why an inertial wheel for the left seat?  Mine is fixed and adjusted for me and it comes off when cruise checklist is complete (about 26’ AGL which is 25’ after gear retraction).  
 
Would seem right seat with varying passengers would benefit more.  I love nothing more than sitting in a 150F plane helping my “co-pilot” navigate adjusting the should strap.  

Mostly because it’s click and forget. No restrictions in movement. Inertia reel for the right really does suck for rear seat egress/ingress.  I’ve used fixed belts for the left seat in other planes, works just fine. In terms of user friendliness the delta is small.

[M20F]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Mostly because it’s click and forget.

My left shoulder belt is click and forget and it disconnects from the lap belt.  Not trying to be obtuse maybe I am missing something I just don’t get the inertial wheel belt (unless multiple folks are sitting left seat). 
 

[Shadrach]

12 minutes ago, M20F said:

My left shoulder belt is click and forget and it disconnects from the lap belt.  Not trying to be obtuse maybe I am missing something I just don’t get the inertial wheel belt (unless multiple folks are sitting left seat). 
 

Like you, I would not fly with a fixed shoulder belt tightened down. It would come off in cruise.  I sit far enough back that leaving it on would make some things difficult to reach (fuel selector, center vent, cowl flaps, footwell cubby, right side panel items like the transponder, JPI, etc…). I could stretch to get some or all of those things but the restriction is real. Nice to not think about it. Also nice to not have to worry about getting back on and tightened if I need it in an emergency where I might be distracted.

[kortopates]

My left shoulder belt is click and forget and it disconnects from the lap belt.  Not trying to be obtuse maybe I am missing something I just don’t get the inertial wheel belt (unless multiple folks are sitting left seat). 
 

i think your missing that most of us don’t release our seat belts at 26’ agl, so in flight with the seat belt still on, the pilot can bend over to change tanks etc
In fact maybe with the inertial wheel you wouldn’t feel the need to disconnect the seat belt?
Regardless i don’t have the inertial wheel either and since the fuel selector doesn’t need any acrobatic maneuvers (it’s right in the middle below the center pedestal), my shoulder belts are click and forget till i need something in the back seat.


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[M20F]

57 minutes ago, kortopates said:

i think your missing that most of us don’t release our seat belts at 26’ agl, so in flight with the seat belt still on, the pilot can bend over to change tanks etc
In fact maybe with the inertial wheel you wouldn’t feel the need to disconnect the seat belt?
Regardless i don’t have the inertial wheel either and since the fuel selector doesn’t need any acrobatic maneuvers (it’s right in the middle below the center pedestal), my shoulder belts are click and forget till i need something in the back seat.


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My lap belt stays on the shoulder comes off. 

[kortopates]

My lap belt stays on the shoulder comes off. 

Got it, but you’re the first pilot i know of that does that. And i’ve flown with a great many pilots. Me, i’ve been known to tighten it up encountering some turbulence but never un do it.
Well i am sure if you do it, others must too, but your the first i’ve heard doing this.


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[MikeOH]

I loosen when I reach over to latch the door, or switch tanks.  Other than that, it is always snug.

[Flyler]

On 8/10/2024 at 3:56 PM, M20F said:

My left shoulder belt is click and forget and it disconnects from the lap belt.  Not trying to be obtuse maybe I am missing something I just don’t get the inertial wheel belt (unless multiple folks are sitting left seat). 
 

I think I'm the same as you, and in the Piper I've been training in we have a fixed shoulder harness and I have no complaints.  I just figured it would be a bit more convenient for reaching the fuel selector.  I doubt I would care too much either way.  For the passenger side, I think the annoyance of having it be in the way during ingress/egress would make me a bit cranky over time.

[M20F]

On 8/10/2024 at 10:02 PM, kortopates said:

Got it, but you’re the first pilot i know of that does that. And i’ve flown with a great many pilots. Me, i’ve been known to tighten it up encountering some turbulence but never un do it.
Well i am sure if you do it, others must too, but your the first i’ve heard doing this.


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What is a shoulder belt going to do in turbulence? 

[kortopates]

What is a shoulder belt going to do in turbulence? 

Really? You haven’t flown in real turbulence yet if you haven’t hit the ceiling in your plane i have a friend that needed stitches after hitting the over head vent since his shoulder belt wasn’t snugged down.
Soon as i get into turbulence, i snug up the belt.
But out west here is probably where the majority of really bad clear air turbulence is found. Moderate turbulence is plentiful here.

But the main reason i won’t fly in an aircraft without shoulder belts is the possibility of an off airport landing. The stats prove they are very helpful at reducing fatal blunt force trauma.


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[M20F]

6 hours ago, kortopates said:

Really? You haven’t flown in real turbulence yet if you haven’t hit the ceiling in your plane i have a friend that needed stitches after hitting the over head vent since his shoulder belt wasn’t snugged down.
Soon as i get into turbulence, i snug up the belt.
 

Perhaps we are having an English issue (I mean this respectfully).  A lap belt which I wear all the time keeps my head from bouncing off the ceiling.  A shoulder belt which I wear on take off and landing keeps my head from impacting the dash.  
 

[kortopates]

Perhaps we are having an English issue (I mean this respectfully).  A lap belt which I wear all the time keeps my head from bouncing off the ceiling.  A shoulder belt which I wear on take off and landing keeps my head from impacting the dash.  
 

I believe you need both to keep your head off the ceiling in stronger turbulence. The snugged shoulder harness makes a big difference IMO.
But severe turbulence it’s rare out west with our tall mountains. Been in extreme turbulence multiple times too.


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[M20F]

1 hour ago, kortopates said:

I believe you need both to keep your head off the ceiling in stronger turbulence. The snugged shoulder harness makes a big difference IMO.
But severe turbulence it’s rare out west with our tall mountains. Been in extreme turbulence multiple times too.


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We will agree to disagree on what belt keeps our head from going through the windshield versus the ceiling.  
 
I give you respect though for flying through weather so strong in a GA airplane that you need at minimum a 3 point harness to survive. 

[Danb]

9 hours ago, M20F said:

We will agree to disagree on what belt keeps our head from going through the windshield versus the ceiling.  
 
I give you respect though for flying through weather so strong in a GA airplane that you need at minimum a 3 point harness to survive. 

A couple years ago I was crossing New Mexico and encountered turbulence so bad I had to snug up the shoulder harness due to hitting the ceiling, my wife had hers off and had a mild concussion I got it on her quickly I didn’t know she took it off. She still does, my AMSEAT belts are so tight they hurt my upper left chest. Gotta figure something out about that..