New Avionics

[PeterRus]

I am a little confused. 

Where do I find information about the modern avionics "capabilities" so I can make an educated decision on what I need for the upgrade. The current panel is "age appropriate", so at the very minimum I'd like a modern GPS. Let's say, G-suite -- do I need 750 or 650 is enough if I'd like to have G500Txi installed sometime down the road... Can the G500 display the moving map with data feed from the GPS? Same with engine monitor -- do I need a separate "screen" (gi275) or an MFD is enough?

Another question I have the 750 GPS is advertised as "MFD" -- does it mean I can display engine data on it (doubt it). 

What are capabilities of the various avionics components and how do they interact with each other? THe manufacture's website has minimal information and digging the internet does not give me a complete picture.

[Marc_B]

Best way to see avionics is from fellow pilots, ask at fly-ins, go to EAA Airventure/Sun N Fun...  or if you have a local avionics shop that you like, go stop by the shop and let them know you're in the market and want to see some examples of their installs/get references from their installs.

MooneyMax is coming up in September and there will be plenty of good examples of upgrades there.

The Garmin GTN750 doesn't have EIS capability.  You'd have to go with a G3X or G500TXi for that (or just put in a standalone Electronics International or JPI monitor).

The other thing I'd recommend is to download the Garmin Aviation Trainer (link below).  you can check out various PFD and nav/coms to see how they compare and to "play" with them from home.

https://www8.garmin.com/support/download_details.jsp?id=12373

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, PeterRus said:

I am a little confused. 

Where do I find information about the modern avionics "capabilities" so I can make an educated decision on what I need for the upgrade. The current panel is "age appropriate", so at the very minimum I'd like a modern GPS. Let's say, G-suite -- do I need 750 or 650 is enough if I'd like to have G500Txi installed sometime down the road... Can the G500 display the moving map with data feed from the GPS? Same with engine monitor -- do I need a separate "screen" (gi275) or an MFD is enough?

Another question I have the 750 GPS is advertised as "MFD" -- does it mean I can display engine data on it (doubt it). 

What are capabilities of the various avionics components and how do they interact with each other? THe manufacture's website has minimal information and digging the internet does not give me a complete picture.

You bought a nice-looking plane.  But one would need to know more about your goals.  Like everything in aviation "its complicated"

• You can get "modern GPS" with limited modifications
• But do you want to get rid of your vacuum system?  I see you have stand-by vac,
• Do you want all digital or a hybrid of steam gauge and some digital?
• Do you want a large flat screen panel?
• You asked about engine instruments - do you just want redundant digital display or do you want to get rid of you current instrumentation? If so you need a "primary" EDM like a JPI EDM 900 or larger 930 
• Do you want it all integrated with a modern autopilot?
• I see you have a WX950 stormscope - do you want storm/lightening on your MDF? - perhaps a WX-500
• How much do you want to spend?

You really need to look at other panels, find out how much they spent,  Also talk to an avionics shop and get estimates.

 

 

https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/222336491/n97dm-1997-mooney-m20j-mse

Avionics  

King KMA24 Audio Panel 
King KLN89B GPS 
King KX165 Digital Nav/Com with Glideslope 
King KX155 Digital Nav/Com 
King KN64 DME with Remote Switch 
King KCS55A Slaved HSI 
King KAP150 Fully Coupling Autopilot with CWS 
Appareo Stratus ESG Transponder with Stratus ADS-B in 

Equipment 

WX950 Stormscope 
Shadin Digital Fuel Flow 

Electric Pitch Trim 
Symphony 468 Intercom System  
LED Wing Tip Strobes & Recon Lights
Yoke Ident Button 

 

[PeterRus]

All good questions.

I want to get a GPS. Maybe just update the DBs in KLN89B. But traffic other than iPad would be nice, too. So, I figured, if upgrade the GPS then to WAAS capable. 

Yes, and no. I really like the "steam gauge" look and I think I want to keep this look, at the very least something similar to what newer Mooneys have (but removal would shave off some weight). However (see below).

Flat screen for some odd reason doe not appeal to me, but I do realize the extra real estate is valuable and three GI 275s (horizon, hsi, and eis) make it very close to one big screen -- hence I think it may make more sense to have one big flat screen... If I end up with one (or two) big screen do I need 750+650 instead of 650x2? I am not trying to save money here, but rather panel space for non-remote audio panel and ads-b with real buttons.

EIS -- if I go with digital, I would like primary. Which can be displayed on the big screen (MFD/PFD?) from what I was able to dig up. 

Modern AP -- yes, down the road, not right away -- KAP150 works.

The Garmin option is just an example. Dynon website does a better job, but still muddy for me (and lack of AP...)

I got a quote for 750+650+remote panel + remote ads-b from one place, two others I asked for quotes are mum. Money is always an issue, but for now I'd like to have a better understanding what my options are before I start talking to an avionics shop: in my experience it's better to know about 80% of the answer before asking questions. 

[PT20J]

Just do a LOT of homework. Not everything is compatible with everything else - even if you stay with all Garmin. And, verify everything your avionics shop tells you because they cannot possibly know everything and sometimes their advice may be wrong. A lot of owners have been surprised to find that some feature they were expecting was not available in their installation.

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, PeterRus said:

I am a little confused. 

Where do I find information about the modern avionics "capabilities" so I can make an educated decision on what I need for the upgrade. The current panel is "age appropriate", so at the very minimum I'd like a modern GPS. Let's say, G-suite -- do I need 750 or 650 is enough if I'd like to have G500Txi installed sometime down the road... Can the G500 display the moving map with data feed from the GPS? Same with engine monitor -- do I need a separate "screen" (gi275) or an MFD is enough?

Another question I have the 750 GPS is advertised as "MFD" -- does it mean I can display engine data on it (doubt it). 

What are capabilities of the various avionics components and how do they interact with each other? THe manufacture's website has minimal information and digging the internet does not give me a complete picture.

I did my upgrade in 2014 with additional upgrades to the upgrade since that time.  I spent a month full time researching what was available and reading the details of each piece of avionics (I was previously a display electrical engineer, now a full time flight instructor).  For my purposes I'm satisfied with the speed of my  plane so was not interested in "upgrading" to a turboprop or jet.  Therefore, I wanted the best of the best.  We're all concerned with monetary input, but for me not over the avionics I wanted.  However, that didn't mean I didn't want a good deal.  The best deals seem to be had by going to AirVenture.  I've been going for the past 24 years and looking at anything new.  At the time Garmin had just come out with some of the best to me avionics I could have wanted.  They had some extremely good deals there when buying multiple units.  I saved a bundle in that way.  Selling all my old avionics also proved very valuable in reducing the overall cost of the upgrade.  Garmin did not have their EIS at the time, but even now I wouldn't have chosen it over the EI MVP-50 that for me does everything that I want and doesn't take up valuable real estate on the display.  Except for the upload to an iPad I think the MVP-50 provides more information than the Garmin EIS.  Of course there is the competition like Aspen or Dynon, but again for me I didn't want to worry about inter connectivity so for the most part I went all Garmin.  To me they are the Rolls Royce of the avionics world.  That doesn't mean you won't like the others.  It just means that I like the Garmin interface and displays best.

Even given the avionics market today, I wouldn't change a thing I have done so far and I don't think there is anything else I could add that would give me more capability with a single engine turbocharged airplane.  On my trip to AirVenture this year i made use of everything including the Stormscope WX-500, my active traffic GTS 800, GDL 69A, and Aera 760 among other things.

Done by one person 10 years ago the upgrade took 6 months, an excruciatingly long time.  A bigger shop could most likely do it quicker, but when mine was done there were no mistakes.  The upgrades to the upgrade include the G500 to the G500 TXi, the GTN 750 and GTN 650 to the Xi models, Alpha Systems Eagle AOA, Microkits LHS, conversion to all LED lights, and lastly conversion of the KFC 150 to the GFC 500 4 servo autopilot.

You're in for quite a ride, one that I would NOT like to do again.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, PeterRus said:

All good questions.

I want to get a GPS. Maybe just update the DBs in KLN89B. But traffic other than iPad would be nice, too. So, I figured, if upgrade the GPS then to WAAS capable. 

Yes, and no. I really like the "steam gauge" look and I think I want to keep this look, at the very least something similar to what newer Mooneys have (but removal would shave off some weight). However (see below).

Flat screen for some odd reason doe not appeal to me, but I do realize the extra real estate is valuable and three GI 275s (horizon, hsi, and eis) make it very close to one big screen -- hence I think it may make more sense to have one big flat screen... If I end up with one (or two) big screen do I need 750+650 instead of 650x2? I am not trying to save money here, but rather panel space for non-remote audio panel and ads-b with real buttons.

EIS -- if I go with digital, I would like primary. Which can be displayed on the big screen (MFD/PFD?) from what I was able to dig up. 

Modern AP -- yes, down the road, not right away -- KAP150 works.

The Garmin option is just an example. Dynon website does a better job, but still muddy for me (and lack of AP...)

I got a quote for 750+650+remote panel + remote ads-b from one place, two others I asked for quotes are mum. Money is always an issue, but for now I'd like to have a better understanding what my options are before I start talking to an avionics shop: in my experience it's better to know about 80% of the answer before asking questions. 

 

12 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I did my upgrade in 2014 with additional upgrades to the upgrade since that time.  I spent a month full time researching what was available and reading the details 

Done by one person 10 years ago the upgrade took 6 months, an excruciatingly long time.  A bigger shop could most likely do it quicker, but when mine was done there were no mistakes. 

You're in for quite a ride, one that I would NOT like to do again.

That’s the other thing. How many months are you whiling to have your plane down?  

[201Mooniac]

3 hours ago, PeterRus said:

All good questions.

I want to get a GPS. Maybe just update the DBs in KLN89B. But traffic other than iPad would be nice, too. So, I figured, if upgrade the GPS then to WAAS capable. 

Yes, and no. I really like the "steam gauge" look and I think I want to keep this look, at the very least something similar to what newer Mooneys have (but removal would shave off some weight). However (see below).

Flat screen for some odd reason doe not appeal to me, but I do realize the extra real estate is valuable and three GI 275s (horizon, hsi, and eis) make it very close to one big screen -- hence I think it may make more sense to have one big flat screen... If I end up with one (or two) big screen do I need 750+650 instead of 650x2? I am not trying to save money here, but rather panel space for non-remote audio panel and ads-b with real buttons.

EIS -- if I go with digital, I would like primary. Which can be displayed on the big screen (MFD/PFD?) from what I was able to dig up. 

Modern AP -- yes, down the road, not right away -- KAP150 works.

The Garmin option is just an example. Dynon website does a better job, but still muddy for me (and lack of AP...)

I got a quote for 750+650+remote panel + remote ads-b from one place, two others I asked for quotes are mum. Money is always an issue, but for now I'd like to have a better understanding what my options are before I start talking to an avionics shop: in my experience it's better to know about 80% of the answer before asking questions. 

Well you can somewhat keep the steam gauge look by going with the 3 GI 275s as you have called out.  The G500TXi (or the G3X) will allow you to have the PFD, MFD, and EIS all on the one screen if you'd like.  I have the G500 TXi but chose to add a GI 275 for the EIS to not give up space on the main display.

In my opinion, if you go with a G500TXi or G3X, youo are fine with 2X GTN 650Xi as you already have a large display but having the extra screen real estate is always helpful.  I went with the 2X GTN 650Xi as I wanted the audio panel and transponder in the panel and not remote.  That is a preference for me, not a functional improvement (unless you have a GTN 750Xi failure and even then things still work if you have everything configure correctly and know what to expect).

[PeterRus]

Thank everyone. More I think about it, more I come to conclusion that I need to figure out what I want.

@donkayeI had some less than stellar experience with CGR-30 engine monitor -- its refresh rate is lagging behind control adjustments (on a different aircraft). I am kind of in the same boat -- not interested in plane upgrade, but would like a "comfortable" panel and would prefer to stay with the same vendor for consistent looks and feel.

Money/time I'll figure out after I am comfortable with my selection, whether it's G/D/something else.

 

[201Steve]

I did my panel with “some” budget in mind. Still a pile of money but I didn’t want to go crazy for various reasons. My main objectives were: to be highly functional, save money on the “wow factor” items, install products that would be useful in the future should I elect to go full tilt. 
 

It’s not the prettiest panel, but it is fully digital, highly capable, and does the same thing a modern glass panel does, just without several “would be nice” items. 
 

We also have a 2023 SR22T with the full Garmin suite. The “would be nice” items are awesome, but 90% of the time are not critical. I have the best function for the money in the Mooney. 
 

 

[PT20J]

13 minutes ago, 201Steve said:

 

Nice. One suggestion: I mounted a USB power supply behind the panel (I used a Mid-Continent True Blue power cube, but there are probably others) and then ran a black braided-sheath USB cable from behind the panel underneath the yoke shaft to the iPad. It's out of sight and out of the way. 

[Pinecone]

I just completed the big upgrade.  See thread in this section called "Let the Games Begin."

I like the big screen.  Lots of options to display various things as needed.

With the big screen, you can do with a 650Xi, but a 750Xi gives more options for displaying things.  750 AND 650 is a bit of over kill.  I had the 650Xi, and swapping it out was not going to save enough money to justify that, so I ended up with both.   That again, opens up possibilities.

I talked to a couple of shops and Garmin.  If you going with the GFC-500, the G3X touch works well and saves some money.  The G500TXi is a newer unit with brighter screen, more colors, faster processor and a higher price tag.  The big plus is that it works with legacy autopilots.

[Marc_B]

The luxury of having equipment that talks and works together and the increased functionality, capability and situational awareness it lends is really amazing.  But it comes at a price.  The problem is that it’s not linear price increase. The largest chunk is the price of entry to a basic panel upgrade.  Even going with legacy Garmin equipment isn’t a huge cost save.
But if you are planning a partial panel then I think it’s very important to find someone with similar equipment and speak with them about what plays nice and what quirks they’ve found or road blocks they ran into. 
It all depends on how you fly and how much money you care to spend. (Really moreso on the later)

A solid IFR nav/comm and a working autopilot is a minimum necessity for me.  But I followed @donkaye and feel that’s about as good as it gets.