Mooney upgrade

[snowman]

On 7/14/2024 at 11:48 AM, Rick Junkin said:

but the 252 can out-perform a Bravo at higher altitudes at the same or lower fuel flows

Thanks for all your answer and advise you're great !!

Although I prefered the look of  the long body , I probably stop my choice on 252 , I alway fly alone or 2 max .

  And want to have a turbo to fly High without lost power following the advise of Mike Bush of Savvy aviation on youtube .

     In the next week I probably take my plane to go in texas an arizona were I see some Mooney for sale on controller in my 2 week vacancy passing in osk by the way.

         If someone find a good 252 for sale let me know 

 

Thanks 

 

martin

 

P.S.  sorry for my bad English I'm born french

  

[snowman]

A last question is the lenght of 201 (20F)  and 252 are the same ?

 

Martin

[Falcon Man]

"A fool and his money are soon parted"

[Ragsf15e]

31 minutes ago, snowman said:

A last question is the lenght of 201 (20F)  and 252 are the same ?

 

Martin

Yes, they are the same length.  There are generally 3 lengths, the short bodies (D,C,E) up through about 1975.  The mid Bodies (F,J,K) and then the long bodies (Bravo, Acclaim, Ovation, Eagle).  The 231,252, etc are versions of the K.

Don’t worry, your English is much better than our French.

[snowman]

28 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Yes, they are the same length.  There are generally 3 lengths, the short bodies (D,C,E) up through about 1975.  The mid Bodies (F,J,K) and then the long bodies (Bravo, Acclaim, Ovation, Eagle).  The 231,252, etc are versions of the K.

Don’t worry, your English is much better than our French.

Thanks  Martin

[BlueSky247]

Never thought I’d see a J listed for $300k. It seems nicely sorted though. Wish they’d spell brakes correctly. 

[Fly Boomer]

5 hours ago, BlueSky247 said:

Never thought I’d see a J listed for $300k. It seems nicely sorted though. Wish they’d spell brakes correctly. 

Clearly an outlier, but I found it encouraging.

[toto]

11 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2431320&s-type=aircraft

There must be a story here.  Hard to see the logic in dumping 150 AMUs into upgrades and then selling it immediately after.  If they were actually trying to build a "better than new" J model a la @Rmag, you'd think they would go ahead and do the paint.  

[Fly Boomer]

13 minutes ago, toto said:

There must be a story here.  Hard to see the logic in dumping 150 AMUs into upgrades and then selling it immediately after.  If they were actually trying to build a "better than new" J model a la @Rmag, you'd think they would go ahead and do the paint.  

Nobody is paying 300 for that airplane, but I thought it was noteworthy that an asking price could be so high.  It may also be an example of a seller assuming that all the money that went into upgrades can be recaptured when it's sold.

[Rick Junkin]

8 hours ago, snowman said:

Although I prefered the look of  the long body , I probably stop my choice on 252 , I alway fly alone or 2 max .

Performance is only part of the equation, so I wouldn’t pass up a nice Bravo. I love mine and have applied the resources to make it my forever airplane.

And keep in mind we were comparing the Bravo and the Encore, not a straight 252, and Encores are relatively rare and not often on the market. And when they are they are priced higher than a similarly equipped Bravo. There are good reasons for that, many mentioned in this thread.

[toto]

7 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

Nobody is paying 300 for that airplane, but I thought it was noteworthy that an asking price could be so high.  It may also be an example of a seller assuming that all the money that went into upgrades can be recaptured when it's sold.

Yeah, it's just the dumping piles of money into the airplane right before selling it that I don't understand - it's like putting a new kitchen in your house and selling it a month later

 

[exM20K]

13 hours ago, EricJ said:

Still not anything near a $300k airplane imho.

 

“Yes, dear. The airplane is listed for sale….”

-dan

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?make=MOONEY&model_group=MOONEY+M20+SERIES&model=M20J+201&listing_id=2431320&s-type=aircraft


It’s TN.

Nice.  But if that is worth that much, mine is worth even more than I thought.

Similar panels (I have G3X Touches instead of G500TXis and a G-5 instead of GI-275).  But I add WX500.  I do not have the fancy new GDL-60 datalink.  Or sat talephone.

I have a lower time FRM.  Monroy Tanks.  Encore upgrade to 3130 MGTOW. 

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Yeah, it's just the dumping piles of money into the airplane right before selling it that I don't understand - it's like putting a new kitchen in your house and selling it a month later

 

In this environment of long lead times, one sensible spend might be a factory or well-regarded field overhaul if an engine is high time or making metal/consuming oil.  Having someone else carry the plane for 12-20+ weeks waiting on an engine, bearing all the risks of discovered discrepancies, etc is worth something.  Engines are a lease, really, so they should get capitalized predictably and at near cost/pain.  Paint and interior, not so much.

I’m sure real estate salespeople love it when they can talk a seller into expensive improvements… they get their vig on a bigger ticket.

-dan

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Rick Junkin said:

Performance is only part of the equation, so I wouldn’t pass up a nice Bravo. I love mine and have applied the resources to make it my forever airplane.

And keep in mind we were comparing the Bravo and the Encore, not a straight 252, and Encores are relatively rare and not often on the market. And when they are they are priced higher than a similarly equipped Bravo. There are good reasons for that, many mentioned in this thread.

Except a 2h2 can be converted to an Encore, but with a slightly lower empty weight.  And there are quite a few converted 252s on the market.  I bought mine already converted.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, toto said:

Yeah, it's just the dumping piles of money into the airplane right before selling it that I don't understand - it's like putting a new kitchen in your house and selling it a month later

 

It used to be that an upgraded kitchen was something like 80% ROI.

It depends on the market and how much price difference and ease of sale there is.

I would take a HARD look on a shortly before sale field overhaul.

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

Nobody is paying 300 for that airplane, but I thought it was noteworthy that an asking price could be so high.  It may also be an example of a seller assuming that all the money that went into upgrades can be recaptured when it's sold.

I figure that if I sold soon, I could get maybe 50% of the cost of the avionics.

[exM20K]

On 7/14/2024 at 9:32 PM, Rick Junkin said:

There it is! Thanks @Pinecone.

@snowman, this is the comparison you were looking for in real terms from real people flying real airplanes. See the 252 Encore performance numbers above. And also the Bravo numbers at 19,000 from @Fritz above.

Here are the same numbers for my Bravo at 17,000 cruise: 30", 2200 RPM, at 13.2 GPH, LOP for 70% power, for a 180 KTAS cruise.

Nearly identical, with the 252 Encore winning for economy and useful load. The Bravo can go faster if you whip it, up around 190 KTAS, but it costs at least 18 GPH ROP to get it. The Encore can also go faster but for less of a fuel penalty. So the only other factor that comes to mind is the Encore mid body vs the Bravo long body, and that's pretty meaningless (in my opinion) unless you have a regular mission to carry folks in the back seat. There are other factors, but this should get you headed where you want to go in your decision process.

Good luck with your search!

Cheers,
Junkman

EDIT: To answer your question about prices, if I were to put my Bravo up for sale right now I would be asking in the neighborhood of $250K. Well maintained 1989 airplane with a mid time engine and a contemporary glass panel. But it isn't for sale and won't be for quite some time (knock on wood) .

It’s not just cruise speed that matters.  I suspect, but do not know, that a Bravo, with its extra HP, out climbs an encore. Going to 17,000 at 1000FPM vs 6-800 is almost a half hour from sea level.  The pathetic climb rate of the piston PA46 has kept me in the Acclaim.

-dan

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, snowman said:

Although I prefered the look of  the long body , I probably stop my choice on 252 , I alway fly alone or 2 max .

          If someone find a good 252 for sale let me know   

If you want a nice 252 or Encore, you need to be ready to make and offer and put down a deposit.  They do not last long on the market.  If one does, that is something wrong.

[Mcstealth]

10 hours ago, snowman said:

 

P.S.  sorry for my bad English I'm born french

  

That is not a sin being born French, well, not much of one at least.

[Pinecone]

1 minute ago, exM20K said:

IGoing to 17,000 at 1000FPM vs 6-800 is almost a half hour from sea level.  

1000 FPM versus 700 FPM is 17 versus 24 minutes.

 

[exM20K]

Just now, Pinecone said:

1000 FPM versus 700 FPM is 17 versus 24 minutes.

 

Thought I edited that to 1200, which is what I see.  I don’t math or type well in the morning :-)

[M20F]

This chart @Rick Junkin posted makes a very clear point. 
 
Unless you get on O2 you are not going to be faster than an Ovation.  
 
Going high in my opinion requires at least a 2hr leg.  It also depends on winds which often are much more extreme at altitude (favorable and unfavorable). 
 
The turbo mafia here  will deny this but a turbo makes it pretty easy to toast your engine if you are not paying attention and has additional annual and incidental expenses.  For example lose a valve you are doing the cylinder and the turbo. 
 
Fly out west, take a lot of long trips, cross a lot of mountains, like O2, etc. then it might make sense.  NA Ovation though is probably the better choice.
 
PS Make sure your passengers are into O2.  My girl won’t do it, doesn’t like it, and ain’t gonna be convinced otherwise.  

[Mcstealth]

If one of your requirements is FIKI, then that rules out a 252, I believe. I think they only were produced with inadvertent ice protections???

I seem to remember some Encores do have FIKI.

 

[exM20K]

2 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

If one of your requirements is FIKI, then that rules out a 252, I believe. I think they only were produced with inadvertent ice protections???

I seem to remember some Encores do have FIKI.

 

252 is 24v and FIKI eligible.