Maintenance costs on Bravos

[andrewniesen]

Hello,

I am relatively new to GA with 110 hours. I am pre-solo (waiting on my medical) and am biding my time flying with my instructor by starting IFR training. 

After I get my medical (and presumably my PPL) I will be looking to buy a plane. 

The M20M Bravo has always been on the top of my list, but I get lots of suggestions from various people I talk to and I’m considering alternatives. (Except a Bonanza. I don’t get the appeal.)

One thing I keep hearing from people is that retractable gear maintenance is a money pit. Of course all the other aircraft I would consider are retractable except a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any anecdotal information about what annuals tend to run on Bravos in 2024? As I understand it Mooney gear tend to be simpler in design and cheaper to maintain (and more reliable). Beyond annuals, what gear maintenance costs are there?

What other general maintenance costs should I consider? 

For those who are curious, for my “forever” plane I’m also researching the Cessna T210N, Cessna 310R, and Cirrus SR22 Turbo. I may also buy a Grumman Tiger or Cherokee 180 to build time and move on to something complex later. 

The features of rhe Cirrus check a lot of boxes but it’s expensive to buy. I’m trying to do the math to see if the insurance and maintenance savings of the Cirrus justify the added cost. There’s also the emotional factor that I just don’t really like the Cirrus and like Mooneys better - which is why I’m posting here and not the Cirrus forum haha

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, andrewniesen said:

retractable gear maintenance is a money pit

You are going to get a flood of opinions with this topic, so I will start by saying that you should think about your primary mission before choosing.  I think the main reason many of us buy a Mooney is to go fast.  Not for the hundred-dollar hamburger, but for destinations commonly hundreds of miles away or even across the country.  I doubt that a well-cared-for Mooney will cost any more to maintain than other brands, and I would bet lunch that the Cirrus will cost more to maintain.  Also, if you are concerned about retractable gear, a 210 is probably not for you.

[Rsmithref]

I would just say Ditto to all the above, with 1 addition.  If you are considering maintenance as a primary consideration for inclusion or exclusion for an aircraft, I think you must consider the $1500-$2000 yearly cost of just having that chute in a Cirrus. Must be redone every 10 years, just do the math  

good luck, and enjoy your journey

[Fritz1]

Loaded question, all kinds of angles, having owned a Bravo for 7 years I darsesay it helps to be mechanically inclined, the bird shines above 10000 ft climbing above convection and icing, cost of owning and flying the bird 100h per year is in the vicinity of $40k, 25h oil changes, buying a bird and getting it up to speed is typically a two year process, typical maintenance items are tanks and landing gear donuts, a Mooney savvy technician is needed to operate the bird successfully. Test fly one, talk to owners and shops, the journey is the destination.

[LANCECASPER]

I've owned three Bravos over the years and they are very capable airplanes. One thing to consider though is that the last Bravo was made nearly 20 years ago so, almost without exception, you will be catching up on a lot of deferred maintenance. This applies to any older airplane, but since the Bravo has a lot of systems, a lot of owners that aren't big into preventive maintenance run them until something breaks. You might consider filling out your profile so we know where you are. Having a Bravo specialist near you is a plus. There is a lot crammed under the cowl in early Bravos especially with two vacuum pumps behind the engine, etc. For someone that hasn't worked on them before there is a learning curve. Even if you're quite a distance away it often is worth it to take it to someone that knows this airplane and isn't learning on yours.

There's a good section on the Bravo below:  https://mooneyspace.com/forum/13-mooney-bravo-owners/

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Fritz1 said:

cost of owning and flying the bird 100h per year is in the vicinity of $40k

How would you break that down.  Maybe $20K per year for annual inspection, and $20K per year operating costs?

[Fritz1]

Something like that without upgrades, there is always something, my carpets start looking ratty, think the super dooper SCS kit is $1500

[GeeBee]

Forget out maintenance costs, insurance is going to be your major cost until you get somer retractable time under your belt.

[201Mooniac]

Since the gear is about the same in all Mooneys I'll say that in the 29 years of owning my M20J I have found the gear maintenance to be barely a blip in my maintenance costs.  I've changed donuts once and a microswitch once.  Other than lubrication, I can't really recall much more costs specific to the retract gear.

[LANCECASPER]

5 hours ago, andrewniesen said:

Hello,

I am relatively new to GA with 110 hours. I am pre-solo (waiting on my medical) and am biding my time flying with my instructor by starting IFR training. 

After I get my medical (and presumably my PPL) I will be looking to buy a plane. 

The M20M Bravo has always been on the top of my list, but I get lots of suggestions from various people I talk to and I’m considering alternatives. (Except a Bonanza. I don’t get the appeal.)

One thing I keep hearing from people is that retractable gear maintenance is a money pit. Of course all the other aircraft I would consider are retractable except a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any anecdotal information about what annuals tend to run on Bravos in 2024? As I understand it Mooney gear tend to be simpler in design and cheaper to maintain (and more reliable). Beyond annuals, what gear maintenance costs are there?

What other general maintenance costs should I consider? 

For those who are curious, for my “forever” plane I’m also researching the Cessna T210N, Cessna 310R, and Cirrus SR22 Turbo. I may also buy a Grumman Tiger or Cherokee 180 to build time and move on to something complex later. 

The features of rhe Cirrus check a lot of boxes but it’s expensive to buy. I’m trying to do the math to see if the insurance and maintenance savings of the Cirrus justify the added cost. There’s also the emotional factor that I just don’t really like the Cirrus and like Mooneys better - which is why I’m posting here and not the Cirrus forum haha

In more closely looking over your post it seems like you still haven't narrowed down an airplane and are just gathering information, which is a good thing.

One important piece of information that has held true for many years is that for every 10 people that start taking lessons at the FBO (not talking about college students that go to aviation schools), only 2 of them end up getting their private license. Out of those two that get their license, .5 stay current flying.  People's interests change, life gets in the way, just make sure before you let your mind go down this path that you pass your medical, and start soloing and get comfortable with everything that will be on your checkride.

Almost thirty-nine years ago I bought a Cessna 172 about 3/4 of the way toward getting my private since I was sure that it was something I was going to do. Insurance was do-able and I wasn't in over my head with an airplane way past my capabilities. After 500 hours I bought a Grumman Tiger and then a 172RG to get some retractable time, then I bought my first Mooney 31 years ago this week (M20K 231).  Three years later I bought a Bravo. Not that you have to take that path, but things happen roughly twice as fast in a Bravo than they do in a Cessna 172. WHile that sounds great on a cross country . .  it is very easy to get behind the airplane if you don't have many hours. A handful of people on here have bought a Mooney early in their training and didn't ding it up and made it work, so it can be done. But it is the very rare exception rather than the rule.

[donkaye]

6 hours ago, andrewniesen said:

Hello,

I am relatively new to GA with 110 hours. I am pre-solo (waiting on my medical) and am biding my time flying with my instructor by starting IFR training. 

After I get my medical (and presumably my PPL) I will be looking to buy a plane. 

The M20M Bravo has always been on the top of my list, but I get lots of suggestions from various people I talk to and I’m considering alternatives. (Except a Bonanza. I don’t get the appeal.)

One thing I keep hearing from people is that retractable gear maintenance is a money pit. Of course all the other aircraft I would consider are retractable except a Cirrus. 

Does anyone have any anecdotal information about what annuals tend to run on Bravos in 2024? As I understand it Mooney gear tend to be simpler in design and cheaper to maintain (and more reliable). Beyond annuals, what gear maintenance costs are there?

What other general maintenance costs should I consider? 

For those who are curious, for my “forever” plane I’m also researching the Cessna T210N, Cessna 310R, and Cirrus SR22 Turbo. I may also buy a Grumman Tiger or Cherokee 180 to build time and move on to something complex later. 

The features of rhe Cirrus check a lot of boxes but it’s expensive to buy. I’m trying to do the math to see if the insurance and maintenance savings of the Cirrus justify the added cost. There’s also the emotional factor that I just don’t really like the Cirrus and like Mooneys better - which is why I’m posting here and not the Cirrus forum haha

I've flown and taught in all Mooney models except the D and G, the Cessna 210, most the the Cessna 310s including the R model.  I have 1 hour of Cirrus time.  That tells  you what I think of Cirrus.  The 210 carries a lot, the gear is expensive to maintain and it is heavy on the controls.  The 310 is the perfect twin if you expect to trade up to a jet later on.  You can buy them cheap, but that is where low cost stops.  The most useful 310 is the Q because it is turbocharged.  They are REALLY expensive to maintain.  In today's market the Bravo gives you the most bang for the buck in my biased opinion.  I've had mine 32 years in August.  If you fly by the numbers, all Mooneys are easy to fly and land.  If you don't, you're in for a rough and possibly expensive ride.  If you fly with the precision required of the Mooney, most other singles are simple to manage.

Regarding annual costs for ownership of the Bravo:  Mooneys in my opinion should be maintained by a Mooney Service Center.  For the Annual a minimum of 31 hours is required for the inspection alone; that's about $4,500.  Then there are other items that have be addressed.  Figure $8,000-$10,000 all said and done if nothing major needs to be addressed.  Hangar for me is $7,320, but I have a hangar at a Class C airport, KSCJ.  Insurance for a newbie could be really expensive, but for me its $3,900 and rising due to age.  Then there is fuel.  For 120 hours per year flying at $6.50/gal and 18 gal/hr average, that is $14,040.  Other maintenance last year was only $5,000.  So, based on last year it cost 10,000+7,320+3,900+14,040+5,000 = $40,260.  So figure at least $40,000 per year for now to own the Bravo.

[Rick Junkin]

@andrewniesen You prompted me to update the Cost of Operations spreadsheet for my Bravo, below. You can use it to put in your own numbers to help with your planning and set expectations for any aircraft you are looking at.

Be advised that putting all of these numbers in one place and adding them all up is generally considered a major foul here on Mooneyspace, as once the airplane is ours we really just don't want to know . Perhaps more importantly, we don't want the family CFO to know. 

Cheers,
Junkman

N1088F Operating Cost Model 20240509 excel.xlsx

[joepilotmooney]

Yah...no, I don't want to know !!!!!!!!!!!

[andrewniesen]

8 hours ago, GeeBee said:

Forget out maintenance costs, insurance is going to be your major cost until you get somer retractable time under your belt.

Yeah that's on my radar...but I can get hard numbers on that from insurance agents.

[andrewniesen]

2 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

@andrewniesen You prompted me to update the Cost of Operations spreadsheet for my Bravo, below. You can use it to put in your own numbers to help with your planning and set expectations for any aircraft you are looking at.

Be advised that putting all of these numbers in one place and adding them all up is generally considered a major foul here on Mooneyspace, as once the airplane is ours we really just don't want to know . Perhaps more importantly, we don't want the family CFO to know. 

Cheers,
Junkman

N1088F Operating Cost Model 20240509 excel.xlsx 92.5 kB · 3 downloads

Rick -- This is awesome. You did all the work for me.  I bet you get better insurance rates than i do 

[Rick Junkin]

1 minute ago, andrewniesen said:

You did all the work for me.

Thanks, but I got the original spreadsheet from either the download section here, or MAPA, or some place else. Not my original work. Use it in good health!

And don’t worry, you’ll get there on the insurance end.

Cheers,
Junkman

[andrewniesen]

5 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

In more closely looking over your post it seems like you still haven't narrowed down an airplane and are just gathering information, which is a good thing.

One important piece of information that has held true for many years is that for every 10 people that start taking lessons at the FBO (not talking about college students that go to aviation schools), only 2 of them end up getting their private license. Out of those two that get their license, .5 stay current flying.  People's interests change, life gets in the way, just make sure before you let your mind go down this path that you pass your medical, and start soloing and get comfortable with everything that will be on your checkride.

Almost thirty-nine years ago I bought a Cessna 172 about 3/4 of the way toward getting my private since I was sure that it was something I was going to do. Insurance was do-able and I wasn't in over my head with an airplane way past my capabilities. After 500 hours I bought a Grumman Tiger and then a 172RG to get some retractable time, then I bought my first Mooney 31 years ago this week (M20K 231).  Three years later I bought a Bravo. Not that you have to take that path, but things happen roughly twice as fast in a Bravo than they do in a Cessna 172. WHile that sounds great on a cross country . .  it is very easy to get behind the airplane if you don't have many hours. A handful of people on here have bought a Mooney early in their training and didn't ding it up and made it work, so it can be done. But it is the very rare exception rather than the rule.

You're reinforcing my inclination to buy a simpler aircraft to build some hours...thanks for the insight

[Rick Junkin]

2 minutes ago, andrewniesen said:

You're reinforcing my inclination to buy a simpler aircraft to build some hours...thanks for the insight

A Grumman Tiger was on your list - excellent time building aircraft, very capable and very fun to fly. And very affordable. If you decide to go that way.

Cheers,
Junkman

[andrewniesen]

All in all, I'm surprised at how reasonable these maintenance costs are...thanks for all the helpful info

[Utah20Gflyer]

There is only a slight increase in Maintenance for a retractable gear.  You’re going to pay extra for the annual to do the gear swing and check tensions and lubricate things but it really isn’t much.  You will pay extra insurance to pay for the gear ups that happen.  All in I would guess the extra you pay for having retract gear is 2-3k, which is about the same you are paying each year towards repacking a Cirrus parachute.  
 

For comparison sake I am under 20k a year operating cost for a 1968 G model Mooney.   That’s with a ramp tie down.   Maybe a vintage Mooney would be a good starting place? 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

There is only a slight increase in Maintenance for a retractable gear.  You’re going to pay extra for the annual to do the gear swing and check tensions and lubricate things but it really isn’t much.  You will pay extra insurance to pay for the gear ups that happen.  All in I would guess the extra you pay for having retract gear is 2-3k, which is about the same you are paying each year towards repacking a Cirrus parachute.  

Yes, there is a minimal labor addition to check the gear at annual. But I think our Vintage Mooneys pay back more than that in lower fuel burn from drag reduction (raised gear have no drag).

[dkkim73]

Though mentioned above, I'll reiterate: I was surprised during my initial researches last year that total cost of ownership of a Cirrus was not necessarily favorable vs. a comparable Mooney (I'd naïvely assumed it was because, you know, plastic and all ). 

Insurance was brutal for me the first year. Hull value is a key input regardless. 

Annual cost is something I'm trying to get a guesstimate on for the next few years. I think Don Kaye's conservative estimates above are good for the level of complexity of the M20M or later. 

Something discussed only obliquely above; is a turbo a must-have or a might-want-someday? That would change the cost and complexity equation a bit. E.g. look at Ovation or J. 

PP thoughts only, not an accountant. 

[andrewniesen]

3 hours ago, dkkim73 said:

Though mentioned above, I'll reiterate: I was surprised during my initial researches last year that total cost of ownership of a Cirrus was not necessarily favorable vs. a comparable Mooney (I'd naïvely assumed it was because, you know, plastic and all ). 

Insurance was brutal for me the first year. Hull value is a key input regardless. 

Annual cost is something I'm trying to get a guesstimate on for the next few years. I think Don Kaye's conservative estimates above are good for the level of complexity of the M20M or later. 

Something discussed only obliquely above; is a turbo a must-have or a might-want-someday? That would change the cost and complexity equation a bit. E.g. look at Ovation or J. 

PP thoughts only, not an accountant. 

Agreed...the only reason I would go Cirrus is if the maintenance costs were substantially ($8,000/yr +) lower than Mooney. One thing I am learning (being new to this) is that Mooney retractable maintenance tends to be cheaper because of the relatively simple design of the gear vs other manufacturers. This is probably a "duh" statement for most people on this forum, but when someone else with my level of experience reads this it may be helpful. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

Turbo - I think it's a strong want, because of speed and altitude capabilities. Beyond the Bravo the other model that piques my interest is the K 305 rocket. 

I'm more and more convinced that I should flesh out my logbook in a simpler aircraft (Cherokee 180, Grumman) and then trade up once I've got the experience to stay ahead of a mooney (and save money on insurance premiums).

Does anyone know if insurance companies give you a cost break on retractable gear after you've logged a certain number of flight hours? Or retractable flight hours specifically? Or a combo?

[Fly Boomer]

19 minutes ago, andrewniesen said:

the other model that piques my interest is the K 305 rocket

 

[802flyer]

27 minutes ago, andrewniesen said:

Agreed...the only reason I would go Cirrus is if the maintenance costs were substantially ($8,000/yr +) lower than Mooney.

I have a friend with a Cirrus and anecdotally, it appears that there is definitely a Cirrus Tax when it comes to maintenance costs. My hunch is that you will pay more maintaining a Cirrus than a similarly equipped (eg TKS, turbo, avionics) Mooney.

27 minutes ago, andrewniesen said:

I'm more and more convinced that I should flesh out my logbook in a simpler aircraft (Cherokee 180, Grumman) and then trade up once I've got the experience to stay ahead of a mooney (and save money on insurance premiums).

The cost to acquire and get two planes through acquisition and the first year or two of catch-up annuals is almost definitely more expensive than the insurance delta between a Cherokee/Grumman and a Bravo. Yes, the operating costs might be more like 15-20k for the year or two in the cheaper plane vs. 40k for the Bravo. But that is also weighted against the capability differences between the two platforms. Regardless, there will definitely be unrecoverable costs when you sell and transition to something faster.

27 minutes ago, andrewniesen said:

Does anyone know if insurance companies give you a cost break on retractable gear after you've logged a certain number of flight hours? Or retractable flight hours specifically? Or a combo?

Yes, as you build retract time and time-in-type, you will definitely get cheaper insurance. However this will likely be on the order of a few hundred dollars to maybe a few thousand dollars per year (ink wet on PPL to few hundred hours in-type). Again, this will not meaningfully offset the relative operating costs of a high performance turbo platform. Hull value will be the biggest driver of your premiums, and will not change much as you gain experience; the savings on insuring a Cirrus/Bravo now vs. later (after a few hundred hours of Grumman time) will not be orders of magnitude different.

All of that said, it may be easier to transition from wet PPL to grumman to Bravo in terms of learning to stay ahead of the plane. My humble recommendation is that you make this decision based on how steep you want the learning curve to be vs. any consideration of insurance costs, as they'll be dwarfed by other factors 5 years from now.

 

Maybe get a few quotes for a SR22(T)/Bravo/Tiger using 100/0 and 400/200 hours (total/complex) time just to get order of magnitude ideas on the insurance (can be done free online or through a broker) just for a litmus test of the advice you've been receiving.