Struggling to get complex hours before ownership

[wombat]

12 hours ago, McMooney said:

find a good cfi to do your transition training, you'll get the 10 hours.  

complex endorsement is like 1 flight, no biggie

If your complex endorsement is a single flight, you should probably find a new CFI.

[Parker_Woodruff]

19 hours ago, SilentT said:

That's the title says I'm struggling to get complex hours before becoming an owner, none of the flight schools around me carry complex aircraft anymore. This is mostly due to the removal of the requirement for complex to single engine commercial and other routes being more appealing.

Any yall CFI in western indiana/eastern IL or nw arkansas want to give me some instruction, I'll pay?

Just buy the plane then get your transition training.  Whatever money you spend on renting will be far more than insurance savings (if any)

[Parker_Woodruff]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Wow!  Times have changed...a little over 6 years ago when I bought my F the insurance didn't require any transition training or hours, dual or solo, as I had over 100 hours in a B model.

-Sometimes a broker negotiates (to varying degrees) previous similar model experience.

- Sometimes it's an ignorant broker that says "All M20 time is fine" when in the majority of cases, it's not.

- I can't remember for sure, but I seem to recall one underwriter group certain models together and allow for experience within that pool of particular M20_

[Parker_Woodruff]

12 hours ago, toto said:

If I remember correctly, Parker had a post a while back where he said that different insurance companies do this differently. I think he said that some would accept any Mooney experience as time in type, while others had more specific model requirements. 

Yes, and most require the specific model but we can negotiate similar experience toward reducing checkout time or maybe crediting M20R time for M20U etc.

 

[Parker_Woodruff]

12 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Possible.  Wonder if there has been a 'sea change'?

@Parker_Woodruff

Has there been an overall change where underwriters demand hours in the exact model?  Or, is it unchanged policy?

Case-by-case.  When it becomes a matter of significance (say someone who really just needs an hour or two of transition training rather than 5-10), a good broker will ask for what the insurance company wants to hear (exact model time) and then get other details to support a desired outcome.

Or in a rare case, ask for permission to credit other Mooney time towards a specific model.

[ZuluZulu]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

I've rephrased it in my original post.  To make it clear, the insurance coverage doesn't start until you have the 10 hours you said you will have before coverage begins.

There is absolutely no lying involved and that is not what I was attempting to suggest.

Telling them you have ten hours that you do not actually have is not at all the same as "I plan to log 10 hours in the near future."  If you had said that initially, I would have had no quibble.  Appreciate the clarification.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I bought my first Mooney in 1984, I had about 6 hours in Mooneys. Which consisted of two flights and 2 landings. I had about 150 hours of retract time, mostly in C172RGs with a few Arrow hours. My insurance company didn't require any training or additional hours. I never got any Mooney training. My first solo Mooney flight was flying it home from the broker. The next day a friend and I flew it to Oshkosh after work at night.

Yes, my 40 year Mooney anniversary is coming up soon.

[wombat]

53 minutes ago, ZuluZulu said:

Telling them you have ten hours that you do not actually have is not at all the same as "I plan to log 10 hours in the near future."  If you had said that initially, I would have had no quibble.  Appreciate the clarification.

With the quoting for insurance that I have seen  they just ask for your hours on a form; there is no opportunity to include "I'm going to get training" or anything like that.

You are asking for a quote and providing them with the conditions under which you want them to quote you. It's not lying to get a quote for a plane you have not yet purchased and say it's quoting for a plane you own, and this is the same thing.  If something happened prior to the conditions being met, filing a claim would be fraudulent.

So if you want a quote for coverage on your plane for after you get 10 hours in make and model you ask for a quote with those hours by putting 10 hours in the "make and model" box.  Then get your 10 hours in make and model.   If you have included a CFI to do your transition training as a named insured, the flights where they are acting as PIC should be covered as well.

 

 

[toto]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

With the quoting for insurance that I have seen  they just ask for your hours on a form; there is no opportunity to include "I'm going to get training" or anything like that.

You are asking for a quote and providing them with the conditions under which you want them to quote you. It's not lying to get a quote for a plane you have not yet purchased and say it's quoting for a plane you own, and this is the same thing.  If something happened prior to the conditions being met, filing a claim would be fraudulent.

So if you want a quote for coverage on your plane for after you get 10 hours in make and model you ask for a quote with those hours by putting 10 hours in the "make and model" box.  Then get your 10 hours in make and model.   If you have included a CFI to do your transition training as a named insured, the flights where they are acting as PIC should be covered as well.

 

 

This is one of those things where it’s probably beneficial to talk to a broker like Parker - he can explain the situation to an underwriter and make sure that the bid correctly reflects training and experience plans. 

Definitely don’t want to end up uncovered for your first ten hours in a new plane

 

[Utah20Gflyer]

6 hours ago, wombat said:

If your complex endorsement is a single flight, you should probably find a new CFI.

How many hours would a proper endorsement be?

I did one hour of ground and a one hour flight.  If you understand the concepts isn’t it just following a new checklist with a couple more steps and knowing how to do the emergency gear extension for that particular aircraft?  
 

Maybe I got the shaft when it came to check outs, but then again I have hundreds of hours of complex time now without issue.  So maybe I’m ok? 

[wombat]

I'd say about 5 hours, 25 landings, over probably 3 to 4 flights would be a reasonable plan, although on the slightly excessive side.

I think having more than just a single flight is important.     IMO it's worth the time and expense to train the habit of getting the gear down and checking it multiple times, over more than a single day.    At least twice approach and land from something other than the pattern.  At least one simulated emergency approach and landing.   The best is if it's from cruise altitude/airspeed to a landing at an airport that wasn't planned by the student.

 

A 737 is mostly just following the checklists too.  

 

I wonder what the distribution is for how many retract hours pilots who have had a gear-up landing had before their gear-up. 

[Meshach]

17 hours ago, carusoam said:

I like the Transition Training route…

Expect about 10hrs with a Mooney specific flight instructor…  (a lot depends on your insurer)

Learn how to handle all the wackiness that is specific to Mooney airframes… with somebody that KNOWs.

 

First year of insurance usually costs about 1k more than the second year… stay proficient after that…

 

All airplanes are just different enough from each other…. Getting the transition training for the new 2U bird is worth it…

 

The most recent Mooney accident, may make you wonder about the new owner’s level of transition training… 

 

New 2U machines can be dangerous solely because of all the new things going on…. Not recognizing things as they happen….

 

Transition training is used in the industrial machine industry as well… it’s not just a pilot thing…   

 

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic… or a CFI.

Best regards,

-a-

Got mine last year, have logged 90 hrs since and now my premium just went up 600 a year. Not sure why cause it’s supposed to go down after the first year …

[Hank]

9 minutes ago, Meshach said:

Got mine last year, have logged 90 hrs since and now my premium just went up 600 a year. Not sure why cause it’s supposed to go down after the first year …

Hmmm . . . Premiums went down for Shadrach and up, but went up for Meshach. What happened to Abednego?

Sorry if those jokes are getting old . . .

[ArtVandelay]

Got mine last year, have logged 90 hrs since and now my premium just went up 600 a year. Not sure why cause it’s supposed to go down after the first year …

I believe 100 is the threshold.

[Paul Thomas]

I just got a fantastic quote after talking with Parker this week. I'm paying $2,300 and the only requirement was 2 hours in made and model (J model, not M20P) with an instructor. I only had 55 hours retract and 355 total. When quotes were coming in higher, I was going to just bind with Avemco and re-quote after 3 month. Talk to a pro; I'd recommend Parker based on his reputation and my dealings with him.

[carusoam]

Parker has quite a few years under his belt and is a Mooniac at his core.

Very helpful supporting MSers with their insurance questions and needs.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Yetti]

I was back when it was 10 hours with an instructor.  The instructor was a Mooney Safety Instructor.  I asked him when he was signing me off if "Am I Safe?"   He said yes.  But you will keep learning till you fly it better.    It took about 90 hours in the Mooney till I was very confident and flows were down pat.   On my recent flight review with another Mooney Safety Instructor, he warned me that I was fixing to get a work out.    After the initial thing of flying with a better pilot, there was really nothing that was that hard and I did not sweat it.   The one thing was he wanted half flaps on take off and full flaps on landings. The first Mooney Instructor is not a half flaps on take off. The POH says flaps as required. So it was a break from the normal flows.  Full flaps on landings are if I FUBAR the approach and too high.  The hardest thing was he took over the comms so doing the division of duties was strange.

It's a journey, not a point in time.   Enjoy the Journey.

 

Edited April 2 by Yetti

[dkkim73]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:44 PM, Hank said:

 

Sorry if those jokes are getting old . . .

I'm pretty sure they can take the heat.

[mike_elliott]

On 3/29/2024 at 12:20 PM, Parker_Woodruff said:

toward reducing checkout time or maybe crediting M20R time for M20U

Yea shouldnt take an extra 10 hrs to learn how to close a pilot's side door , Some were fitted rather poorly and might take 10 hrs to get closed however.

In reality, its all about learning new systems in Parkers' example.

In training one of the new M20V owners, the insurer wanted me to have 50 hrs make and model. There wasnt anyone who had 50 hrs in a M20V they were that new. Mikie Miles might have double digits, but that was the pool of experience at the time. The underwriter finally accepted reality and accepted to take on their "bet" and accept that a M20TN and M20V was in reality, the same airframe albeit with a few aero improvements and another hole.