Do you lean as you climb ?

[A64Pilot]

36 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Must be a Florida DA thing. Could be a weight thing too.  At solo weight this time of year I see initial rates of 1300-1500ft and hold greater than 1000 through 5K.  Me +4hrs of fuel puts my bird at 2150lbs. A while back I did a time to climb from takeoff to a pressure alt of 10,500 and I believe I averaged over 800FPM from breaking ground to altitude intercept.  I'll have to find the date so I can check the ADSB data.

 

Weight has a lot to do with it, if you don’t compare aircraft at gross then your not comparing apples to apples. 

Temp of course has an effect, but even back in the late 80’s when I was flying two brand new M20AT’s they just didn’t climb as well as the other aircraft in their training fleet, nor did they descend as well either, both a function of drag. Pull the power on a Cherokee and it drops like a rock, which can be an attribute.

I can’t think of another widely available Certified GA airplane that’s as fast as a Mooney that’s not pretty close to 300 HP, or at least well over 200.

[Shadrach]

On 2/13/2024 at 12:06 PM, A64Pilot said:

Weight has a lot to do with it, if you don’t compare aircraft at gross then your not comparing apples to apples. 

Temp of course has an effect, but even back in the late 80’s when I was flying two brand new M20AT’s they just didn’t climb as well as the other aircraft in their training fleet, nor did they descend as well either, both a function of drag. Pull the power on a Cherokee and it drops like a rock, which can be an attribute.

I can’t think of another widely available Certified GA airplane that’s as fast as a Mooney that’s not pretty close to 300 HP, or at least well over 200.

That’s kind of a silly statement. If that’s the “apples to apples” comparison you’re making then there is no benefit to having a lighter weight Aircraft. I don’t think I have ever had my airplane to MGW. I have been within 100lbs a handful of times. At max fuel (only happens when tankering fuel) my wife and me with weekend bags are >300lbs under gross. Reality is that most of my flying is conducted at 300-600lbs under gross. And it’s not like I don’t have any fuel on board. Me with half tanks put the airplane at 2087lbs or ~650lbs under gross. There are some Js out there that weigh nearly that much empty. It’s definitely a consideration.

[Echo]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

If the engine has been modified, then yes, do some research because maybe you have different limits.  There should be STC paperwork describing those limits if they were installed on a certified aircraft.  Additionally, if you have an aftermarket prop , gov, etc, check that paperwork because you may have limits there.  I have a 3 blade Mcauley prop which changes my non-continuous zone.

The "turbo" converted engine is long gone.  The engine is essentially a J engine configuration on a '65 M20E.  No doghouse.  No ram air. J cowl and exhaust.  The redline is, as you say 2700 NOT 2500 as shown on my tach.  

[Shadrach]

2 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

I wish Clarence was still here, but I think I remember him describing the “full power runup” to check engine output and trying to ensure the rpm was 2600+. This would rely only on the engine and low pitch stop, not the gov.  Maybe there were even limits.  I don’t even know where to look for a reference for this…

Here a short piece of a hartzell manual describing checking the stop and gov… 

I’m certain that static or take off or climb, my engine was over >2600rpm. My governor was at the stop. I had to rotate the whole assembly in its housing to get RPM to max. It would be nice to have Clarence’s input as this is not a super common procedure in the field as far as I can tell. My IA had never done it.

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

The "turbo" converted engine is long gone.  The engine is essentially a J engine configuration on a '65 M20E.  No doghouse.  No ram air. J cowl and exhaust.  The redline is, as you say 2700 NOT 2500 as shown on my tach.  

It appears to be marked on the glass, which is perfectly legal, but the glass has rotated.   There's supposed to be a stripe somewhere (usually white) that shows that the glass and the bezel are still aligned properly, but sometimes those get worn off.

[0TreeLemur]

17 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

One thing I have learned from MS is that your governor shouldn’t be affecting your rpm during the takeoff roll.  At full power and zero kts, the prop is on the low pitch stop.  At some point ~60-90kts the governor Will start to increase pitch to hold it at 2700.  Point is, full power and initial part of the roll you should see 2600+ regardless of your governor (i see about 2675 initially).  If you don’t, your engine isn’t making full rated hp or the low pitch stop is set poorly which i heard was less likely.  Maybe one of the A&Ps will clear up or correct my rudimentary knowledge of this…

Hmmm.  When I bought this J it was only turning about 2630 rpm on takeoff.  I complained to my A&P and the governor required adjustment.   Now it makes 2690-2700 rpm.

[Ragsf15e]

2 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Hmmm.  When I bought this J it was only turning about 2630 rpm on takeoff.  I complained to my A&P and the governor required adjustment.   Now it makes 2690-2700 rpm.

Yes, the way i read it, is that if your governor is set wrong (too low) it can prevent your prop from resting on the low pitch stop which would keep your rpm less than desirable, but wdik?  
 

Opposite issue is if your governor was set to say 2800rpm, you should still see only ~2650 during static runup.  Somewhere around takeoff your rpm would increase up to 2800.  Again, im no expert.

[Shadrach]

11 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I was flying two brand new M20AT’s they just didn’t climb as well as the other aircraft in their training fleet.

What aircraft are you comparing them to?  What other certified, N/A 200hp, 4 plc SEL can do better than the time to climb shown below?

Yes, I was trying to do a max performance climb. Yes, it was a cold day (32° @ 29.42 according to Wunderground historic weather) and...Yes, it was just me and around half tanks.  However, unless my math is off, the numbers below show 8 mins 12 secs from rotation (700') to 10,000' (9300' ascent) for an average ROC of 1134 FPM.

Perhaps ADSB exchange is giving unreliable data?

 

 

[Echo]

3 hours ago, EricJ said:

It appears to be marked on the glass, which is perfectly legal, but the glass has rotated.   There's supposed to be a stripe somewhere (usually white) that shows that the glass and the bezel are still aligned properly, but sometimes those get worn off.

O.K., the plot thickens.  Thanks for that observation.  Razor blade coming.

[Echo]

Do I need any other tach markings besides redline at 2700?

Edited February 14 by Echo

[Echo]

I am somewhat red green color challenged so I hate red markings on anything.  Red golf tees are a non starter for me ; ) 

Edited February 14 by Echo

[EricJ]

39 minutes ago, Echo said:

Do I need any other tach markings besides redline at 2700?

It needs to be marked as indicated in the Limitations section of your POH.

[Shadrach]

42 minutes ago, Echo said:

Do I need any other tach markings besides redline at 2700?

What prop do you have?

[AndreiC]

I have a similar problem as @Shadrach: on climbout (prop control full forward) I only get 2630-2650, unless the engine is cold. If it is (say, after a day of 20°F) on first flight the RPM will go to 2710 or 2720 for a split second, then come down to about 2690 or 2700. On subsequent flights it again is back to 2630 on takeoff. I suspect this is because the oil is thicker and does not govern the prop as it should. 
 

I asked my A&P to fix this, and they tried a small adjustment (not clocking the governor) which didn’t do much. He said there is a problem that my prop governor cable is not quite routed properly, and that would need to be addressed at a future date. Now that I’m in CA I was planning on taking it to Top Gun sometime next month to have them look at it. 
 

BTW, I have the same governor as you,@Shadrach, PCU 5000. How much time did it take your mechanic to clock the governor?

[Echo]

16 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

What prop do you have?

Hartzell Top Prop.  Model#HC-C2YR-1BFP/F7497

there is ZERO written in Propeller Owner's Manual regarding RPM Tach markings for this prop.

[Echo]

46 minutes ago, EricJ said:

It needs to be marked as indicated in the Limitations section of your POH.

I do NOT think that is correct as this plane does NOT have the original prop.  I believe the placard shows the limitations.  Here is what POH says:

[Shadrach]

45 minutes ago, Echo said:

Hartzell Top Prop.  Model#HC-C2YR-1BFP/F7497

there is ZERO written in Propeller Owner's Manual regarding RPM Tach markings for this prop.

Edit. STC corrected.

Link to STC. 
 

https://hartzellprop.com/wp-content/uploads/SA02414CH-D_INST.pdf

[Echo]

10 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

link to STC. Looks like it is less restrictive than the original prop.

https://hartzellprop.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/SA4529NM-D_INST.pdf

Well THAT is awesome because that's a power I never fly.  Thank you very much for that Ross.  Glad I don't have the powerflow.  Scott

*My prop does NOT appear to be the same model number as you displayed though

Edited February 14 by Echo

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, Echo said:

Well THAT is awesome because that's a power I never fly.  Thank you very much for that Ross.  Glad I don't have the powerflow.  Scott

I screwed up. That is the 3 bade.

2 blade is here.

https://hartzellprop.com/wp-content/uploads/SA02414CH-D_INST.pdf

[Echo]

7 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I screwed up. That is the 3 bade.

2 blade is here.

https://hartzellprop.com/wp-content/uploads/SA02414CH-D_INST.pdf

No worries.  Looks like mine is placarded properly.  Good stuff.  Scott

[Shadrach]

15 hours ago, AndreiC said:

I have a similar problem as @Shadrach: on climbout (prop control full forward) I only get 2630-2650, unless the engine is cold. If it is (say, after a day of 20°F) on first flight the RPM will go to 2710 or 2720 for a split second, then come down to about 2690 or 2700. On subsequent flights it again is back to 2630 on takeoff. I suspect this is because the oil is thicker and does not govern the prop as it should. 
 

I asked my A&P to fix this, and they tried a small adjustment (not clocking the governor) which didn’t do much. He said there is a problem that my prop governor cable is not quite routed properly, and that would need to be addressed at a future date. Now that I’m in CA I was planning on taking it to Top Gun sometime next month to have them look at it. 
 

BTW, I have the same governor as you,@Shadrach, PCU 5000. How much time did it take your mechanic to clock the governor?

Andrei, 

I did the job under supervision. I’m not sure it’s worth it. I’m sure many pros are faster than me but I would guess 4-5hrs min. The service manual is pretty light on details in this area. I put the engine on a hoist and removed the two bolts that hold the upper motor mount to the firewall. After disconnecting the necessary hoses and wiring, I tilted the engine forward to access the governor. With the engine tilted forward there is adequate but not a surplus of room. The pain was getting the mount back against the firewall. The location of my engine hoist point caused the nose wheel to lift before the mount would mate flush against the firewall. I had to use a ratchet strap in combination with the hoist to line everything up. I am sure that more experienced mechanics know some short cuts. I’m just glad I got the governor right on the first try.  I suspect mine was on the low side because the original installing shop said “good enough” rather than go to the trouble to adjust it further.

 

[DCarlton]

On 2/12/2024 at 11:02 AM, pagirard said:

My climb performance isn't great so my question is….

I’m late to this thread, and I read it quickly but what are you comparing your climb performance to?  I’ve never had an opportunity to fly anything with better climb performance.  

[Ragsf15e]

12 hours ago, DCarlton said:

I’m late to this thread, and I read it quickly but what are you comparing your climb performance to?  I’ve never had an opportunity to fly anything with better climb performance.  

I fly an m500 for work and it only climbs 1500fpm around mgw.  Maybe 2000fpm if you’re real light.  Now it holds that to 20,000’, but  The mooney isn’t bad!

[DCarlton]

31 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

I fly an m500 for work and it only climbs 1500fpm around mgw.  Maybe 2000fpm if you’re real light.  Now it holds that to 20,000’, but  The mooney isn’t bad!

I haven't looked in years, but is there a normally aspirated four cylinder piston powered certified aircraft that has better climb performance than a M20?  Will have to go search now.  

[Shadrach]

9 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

I haven't looked in years, but is there a normally aspirated four cylinder piston powered certified aircraft that has better climb performance than a M20?  Will have to go search now.  

Extra 200 and Aviat Pitts S1 come to mind.

The Arrow, Cardinal, Cutlass, Comanche and Sierra all fall short.