So Apparently WE Are The Cause of Airline Delays!! Who Knew...

[PeteMc]

Any of you see the AVweb articles on how a letter was sent to Sec. Buttigieg blaming GA Traffic for the Airline Delays over the holidays?  You gotta love it!

I'm sure they're talking about all the various Private Jet traffic going into the various larger airports with FL and the northeast (two areas mentioned).  But hey, we should all be careful this year or they may, again, go after us bugsmashers too!!!  I think it was in the 80s, but at one point I also remember the Airlines bitching about how ATC had to talk to all that little GA traffic when they were supposed to be there FOR THEM. 

I don't know if you have to be an AVweb subscriber to view these or not, but here are the links:

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/airlines-blame-ga-for-holiday-flight-delays/?MailingID=FLY240101003&utm_campaign=avwebflash&utm_medium=newsletter&oly_enc_id=6466I3042634F3A

https://www.avweb.com/insider/a-weirdly-provocative-way-to-end-the-year/?MailingID=FLY240101003&utm_campaign=avwebflash&utm_medium=newsletter&oly_enc_id=6466I3042634F3A

[hammdo]

For the love of God — I’ve heard this so many times over the years — yeah WE’RE REALLY flying into ALL those airports where big iron flys…

-Don

[ArtVandelay]

For the love of God — I’ve heard this so many times over the years — yeah WE REALLY flying into ALL those airports where big iron flys…
-Don

Only to get the cheap fuel:

[PeteMc]

6 hours ago, hammdo said:

I’ve heard this so many times over the years

Well...  They have to blame someone!!!!  It certainly isn't THEIR fault they mess up.  (Excluding legit Wx reasons.)

 

[1964-M20E]

When I was flying to KORL on Dec 26 I was delayed and was told by ATC to slow down because there were 5 jets ahead off me and I was #6 to land.  First time that ever happened but KORL is always busy and we were all flying the approach.   Yes the biz jets are delaying air traffic.

[GeeBee]

Remember this the next time they want to "privatize" ATC.

[Rick Junkin]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

Remember this the next time they want to "privatize" ATC.

...and here we go....

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/harvard-prof-promotes-atc-privatization-to-squeeze-out-ga/?MailingID=FLY240102003&utm_campaign=avwebflash&utm_medium=newsletter&oly_enc_id=7809D4413378B7B

Not so many cheers,
Rick

[Rick Junkin]

33 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

On some of the other aviation websites pilots noted that in the more congested areas, rather than wait for a clearance, some pilots, primarily unscheduled for hire flights, would file for the destination with the least delay to get airborne and then change destination in the air.

If that’s true, it’s a horse of a different color. Gaming the system, apparently routinely, can’t lead anywhere good in the long term for GA. It is akin to jumping line which seldom works out without conflict.

On the other hand, the scheduled airlines have essentially monopolized the available slotting into the larger metropolitan airports, leaving corporate and charter operations to clamor for sloppy seconds on what slots are left. It still doesn’t justify the poor behavior with disingenuous flight plans, but it puts the airline complaints in a different and still poor light - they’re pissed that GA has found a way to jump line and interrupt their setup that can generally block free access to GA, and they want the government to make other revenue and corporate operators pay. Which will undoubtedly ding the rest of us to some extent if the airlines are successful. All under the guise of “what’s best for the flying public”. I can think of a number of things not remotely related to GA the airlines could do to benefit the flying public, but that’s a whole different conversation.

We have some corporate and charter pilots here on MS. What’s your perspective? And what are your practices regarding filing with the intent of changing destinations once airborne?

Cheers,
Rick

[Planegary]

I fly for a major fractional. It is operational procedure for us to be assigned a trip and we go out prep the plane and load the flight plan after receiving the clearance. Before we depart the flight entirely changes and dispatch files another flight plan. So now we go to pick up the NEW flight plan and clearance is fuzzed up at us because of the change. I have also personally seen at KTEB where I was cleared via then as filed and asked for a fix by fix verification and found the route assigned was different than the route filed that was printed on my flight release.when I queried clnc about this they were not happy shall we say. This difference precipitated a phone call to company and an ASAP being filed for informational purposes. 

[Rick Junkin]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:21 PM, Planegary said:

Before we depart the flight entirely changes and dispatch files another flight plan.

I'm just curious - is this a one-off or does it happen routinely? I assume the clients are the source of the changes, is that correct? I've tried to change my flight plan with clearance on occasion and was almost always told to have our flight office re-file. Sounds like that's what you did at Teterboro without troubling them with the middle step of requesting a change on the radio, and still they were annoyed? I was going to ask if it was a high flow volume time, but when isn't it there.

ASAPs always seemed like a black hole to me, but we had the program at Boeing and I still filed them when appropriate. I figured documenting my perspective of a situation/event couldn't hurt. I'd be interested in hearing anyone's experience on seeing something result from an ASAP report.

Thanks for the insight.

Cheers,
Rick

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, Rick Junkin said:

I'm just curious - is this a one-off or does it happen routinely?

No clue how often it really happens.  I do know that Scheduled Carriers have try to push GA out of the sky for decades.  I think the issue flares up every so many years when the Carriers get dinged with late flights due to Wx or other reasons.  So they start yelling that it's GA's fault and that it has nothing to do with them trying to make sure all their flights arrive and take-off within a few minutes of each other.  

As a passenger I love the fact that I get off one plane, walk to the next one and it leaves.  But I also know that to expect that to work smoothly every time is just stupid, so they have to point the finger somewhere so that less fingers point at them.

 

[Planegary]

All of our flight plans are filed thru company and these last minute changes happen regularly , also we get redirected in flight by company to divert usually due to a last minute change such as a canceled flight or a mechanical. The company has a direct line to center and I have been told within 50 nm of my destination by center that company wants me to divert so I have to slow down and call company for verification( if sufficient fuel   Remains to divert) these redirects can happen to us at any time from sitting in the fbo to as late as we will accept it 

[StevenL757]

On 1/5/2024 at 3:21 PM, Planegary said:

I fly for a major fractional. It is operational procedure for us to be assigned a trip and we go out prep the plane and load the flight plan after receiving the clearance. Before we depart the flight entirely changes and dispatch files another flight plan. So now we go to pick up the NEW flight plan and clearance is fuzzed up at us because of the change. I have also personally seen at KTEB where I was cleared via then as filed and asked for a fix by fix verification and found the route assigned was different than the route filed that was printed on my flight release.when I queried clnc about this they were not happy shall we say. This difference precipitated a phone call to company and an ASAP being filed for informational purposes. 

I also fly for a major fractional (less stress, more money, and better QOL than a 121, personally :-).  To the OP’s question, the majority of the situations we see in the air and on the ground (we get into our fair share of large, regional, and small GA airports equally) is that we rarely run into an instance where we interrupt, delay, or flat out cause a 121 carrier to be delayed or suffer a schedule issue.  We fly higher than them by a comfortable margin, fly just as fast, and just as far.  It generally isn’t a problem for us to have our PDC/CPDLC etc. issued, flt. plan entered into the FMS, pax loaded, and be on our way…all while merging nicely with the big boys at the larger airports.  I’d honestly have to think hard to recall a situation over the last two years where I can remember any of our crews having such issues.

I’ve had to do several diversions over the last six months…both on the East and West coasts…and haven’t been privy to any times where we’ve delayed regional, LCC, and/or legacy 121 carriers due to our changes in plans.  We’ve also had our fair share of “routing verification discussions” with ATC as you’ve described, but they’ve been resolved with minimal time and effort spent.  Not sure if this helps address the OP’s original question and/or sheds any constructive info, but these have been our crews’ experiences, generally-speaking.

[Will.iam]

I really wished that when a reroute is filed, instead of having to listen over the radio for every fix why they do not send each pdc with a unique 5 digit code number at the top that you can just confirm the 5 digit code with clearance and be good to go. Also the sooner airlines go cpdlc like europe has been for over a decade, the sooner the frequencies can be freed up for us ga folks. I almost wonder if the ATC unions are against that change like pilots are fir single pilot ops as it will lead to less job positions in the industry. 

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, Will.iam said:

I really wished that when a reroute is filed, instead of having to listen over the radio for every fix why they do not send each pdc with a unique 5 digit code number at the top that you can just confirm the 5 digit code with clearance and be good to go. Also the sooner airlines go cpdlc like europe has been for over a decade, the sooner the frequencies can be freed up for us ga folks. I almost wonder if the ATC unions are against that change like pilots are fir single pilot ops as it will lead to less job positions in the industry. 

The technology in the US is certainly way behind what it could be.   It seems archaic to me.   We keep using these time-consuming, error-prone procedures when there's way better ways to do it.   It is pretty frustrating to see.