Requiem for an Ownership

[ZuluZulu]

Well I sold my MSE today, and now I'm but a humble renter again.  I was grateful to have one last flight in her, repositioning from the prebuy shop to my hangar where the buyer took delivery.  She flew perfectly, the pilot not so much.  I hope I was a worthy steward.

Anyone have a good "last flight in a plane I sold" story?

[ZuluZulu]

 

[ZuluZulu]

And an appreciative shoutout to @kortopates for making a cameo in the story of my final day as an owner (for now).

[kortopates]

Hopefully we'll see you back in a Mooney very soon!!

[ZuluZulu]

48 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Hopefully we'll see you back in a Mooney very soon!!

Can someone save a nice long-body for me, ready in about five years?  It doesn't even have to be an Acclaim or Ovation or even an Encore or anything, I'll settle for a Screaming Eagle   

[Ed de C.]

5 years?  I think we have you covered.  There will be lots of well-cared-for airplanes ready for you.  We will do our part.  

Best,

Ed

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:32 AM, ZuluZulu said:

Can someone save a nice long-body for me, ready in about five years?  It doesn't even have to be an Acclaim or Ovation or even an Encore or anything, I'll settle for a Screaming Eagle   

Encore is a mid-body

[ZuluZulu]

Just now, LANCECASPER said:

Encore is a mid-body

Thanks Lance, I know.  It's the exception to my long body list.

[joepilotmooney]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:21 PM, ZuluZulu said:

Thanks Lance, I know.  It's the exception to my long body list.

Just wondering what makes the difference in the short, mid and long body Moonies. I have a 78 J and I believe it is a mid body? Is the K long body due to the bigger motor? Silly question I know....

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, joepilotmooney said:

Just wondering what makes the difference in the short, mid and long body Moonies. I have a 78 J and I believe it is a mid body? Is the K long body due to the bigger motor? Silly question I know....

M20K is mid-body.  Think M20J with Continental turbocharged engine (and a few other changes).

[Hank]

2 hours ago, joepilotmooney said:

Just wondering what makes the difference in the short, mid and long body Moonies. I have a 78 J and I believe it is a mid body? Is the K long body due to the bigger motor? Silly question I know....

The original Mooneys are short bodies. Slide the front seat back to get out, they touch the back seat. M20-A through E. Lycoming 4-cylinder engines, 180 hp & carb / 200 hp injected. 

Mid-bodies are 10" longer, 5" for back seat legroom, 5" for additional baggage space. M20-F through K. Lycoming 4-cylinder engines, F-J (all but G are fuel injected 200 hp); Lycoming 6-cylinder turbo in the various versions of the K, 210 hp and up).

Long bodies have Continental 6-cylinder engines, except the rare L with the orphaned Porsche single-lever engine. They are a little more than 2 feet longer, partly for the extra cylinders, partly added baggage space to help balance the engine weight. M20-L through V. 

Long bodies are easy to spot:  the back windows are v-e-e-r-r-r-r-y-y long, and you can see the steel cage coming down near the back of the window. Also, they have a steeper angle on the ground, like 5° nose up, and the rear fuselage is parallel to the ground when parked / taxiing. 

[LANCECASPER]

18 minutes ago, Hank said:

Long bodies have Continental 6-cylinder engines, except the rare L with the orphaned Porsche single-lever engine. They are a little more than 2 feet longer, partly for the extra cylinders, partly added baggage space to help balance the engine weight. M20-L through V. 

The M20M (Bravo) being another long body exception, having a 6 cylinder turbo Lycoming.

[DCarlton]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

The M20M (Bravo) being another long body exception, having a 6 cylinder turbo Lycoming.

Is it difficult to transition to a long body and never become another prop strike statistic? I think there’s one for sale right now with two prop strikes and engine tear downs within a year or two.  That would really really suck.  

[DCarlton]

On 12/5/2023 at 10:53 PM, ZuluZulu said:

Well I sold my MSE today, and now I'm but a humble renter again.  I was grateful to have one last flight in her, repositioning from the prebuy shop to my hangar where the buyer took delivery.  She flew perfectly, the pilot not so much.  I hope I was a worthy steward.

Anyone have a good "last flight in a plane I sold" story?

Look on the bright side.  You won’t have to pay San Diego Property Taxes for five years.  Glad you sold it quickly.  I was having a hard time resisting the urge to fly down and take a look at it.    

[T. Peterson]

4 minutes ago, DCarlton said:

Is it difficult to transition to a long body and never become another prop strike statistic? I think there’s one for sale right now with two prop strikes and engine tear downs within a year or two.  That would really really suck.  

Are the long bodies more susceptible to a prop strike? If they are, is it because they are more prone to the infamous porpoise? 

[DCarlton]

15 minutes ago, T. Peterson said:

Are the long bodies more susceptible to a prop strike? If they are, is it because they are more prone to the infamous porpoise? 

I guess that’s a better first question.  Are they more prone if the pilot is not properly trained ?  I looks like it to me just from reviewing the for sale ads over a few years.  It feels like I’ve seen a lot of prop strikes.  I’ve never studied it though or tallied the stats. I have no need for a longer body but it does get you into a newer air frame.  

[1980Mooney]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

Also, they have a steeper angle on the ground, like 5° nose up, and the rear fuselage is parallel to the ground when parked / taxiing. 

 

6 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

Are the long bodies more susceptible to a prop strike? If they are, is it because they are more prone to the infamous porpoise? 

Actually there are few things going on with the Long Bodies:

1. As @Hank noted, the Long Bodies sit on the ground  five (5) degrees nose up.  The Airfacts Journal notes that the Mid Body M20J sat one (1) degree nose up
   • See the comment from Bob Fishman  https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/06/the-magical-mooney/
   • Assuming this to be accurate, the Long Bodies are therefore pitched up four (4) degrees more than the Mid Bodies when on the ground
   • Using the M20R POH side view dimensions, it appears that the prop tip is about 113 inches from the center of the main landing gear  (the arm of the angle of pitch when sitting on the landing on ground)
   • This will create about 7-8 inches of additional ground clearance for the prop tip on the Long Bodies. as compared to Mid Bodies
2. The greater prop clearance on Long Bodies is important for a couple reasons
   • The Acclaim prop diameter is 76 in vs 74 in for the Mid Body M20J.
   • Also there is about 200 - 250 lb more weight on the nose gear of a Long Body than on a Mid body Lycoming 360
     • 2 more cylinders, intake, exhaust, etc. plus turbo and intercoolers on Acclaim, Bravo, more cowling and heavier prop
     • However the nose gear on a heavier Long Body sits on the same 3 lord discs as a Short or Mid Body nose gear with the lighter Lycoming 360
     • If you bounce the nose upon landing in a Long Body, the shock dics will compress faster and further than a Short or Mid Body 
3. The greater nose up on the Long Bodies, although just a few degrees changes the sight picture when touching down.
   • A Mooney pilot that is used to a Mid Body, may land (touch down) too flat until they adjust to a higher, more nose up final flare at touchdown

So a few things might conspire when a new pilot/owner first learns to land a Long Body.   If you land too flat you might drive the nose in and/or bounce the nose gear starting an oscillating bounce (porpoise).   The greater weight on the nose will create a bigger bounce oscillation.  However, the greater prop clearance may save you if you can arrest the porpoise.

New owners of Rocket 305 or Missile 300 conversions of Mid Bodies have to be really careful.   The prop clearance is less than the Mid Body M20J and there is the extra approx 200 lbs on the nose.  Dirt or grass runways are an invitation for disaster.  Any rough or soft patches after the nose touches down (or in high speed taxi) will cause nose oscillation and on the down stroke greatly compresses the 3 Lord discs which can drive the prop tips into the dirt. There is a topic of a Missile owner that did just that at Oshkosh a few years ago.  The plane was AOG for weeks.

Edited December 10, 2023 by 1980Mooney

[midlifeflyer]

4 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

So a few things might conspire when a new pilot/owner first learns to land a Long Body.   If you land too flat you might drive the nose in and/or bounce the nose gear starting an oscillating bounce (porpoise).   The greater weight on the nose will create a bigger bounce oscillation.  However, the greater prop clearance may save you if you can arrest the porpoise.

I have a friend who initially had a little landing trouble moving up to an Ovation from a mid-body due to the 5° nose high “flat” attitude. I asked, “have you ever flown a Cessna?” When he told me he once owned a 182, I said,  “Just land it like a 182” (more peripheral, less trying to look for the runway over the cowl). Problem solved.

[joepilotmooney]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

The original Mooneys are short bodies. Slide the front seat back to get out, they touch the back seat. M20-A through E. Lycoming 4-cylinder engines, 180 hp & carb / 200 hp injected. 

Mid-bodies are 10" longer, 5" for back seat legroom, 5" for additional baggage space. M20-F through K. Lycoming 4-cylinder engines, F-J (all but G are fuel injected 200 hp); Lycoming 6-cylinder turbo in the various versions of the K, 210 hp and up).

Long bodies have Continental 6-cylinder engines, except the rare L with the orphaned Porsche single-lever engine. They are a little more than 2 feet longer, partly for the extra cylinders, partly added baggage space to help balance the engine weight. M20-L through V. 

Long bodies are easy to spot:  the back windows are v-e-e-r-r-r-r-y-y long, and you can see the steel cage coming down near the back of the window. Also, they have a steeper angle on the ground, like 5° nose up, and the rear fuselage is parallel to the ground when parked / taxiing. 

Thanks Hank - have always wondered about this!

[DCarlton]

8 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Actually there are few things going on with the Long Bodies:

1. As @Hank noted, the Long Bodies sit on the ground  five (5) degrees nose up.  The Airfacts Journal notes that the Mid Body M20J sat one (1) degree nose up
   • See the comment from Bob Fishman  https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/06/the-magical-mooney/
   • Assuming this to be accurate, the Long Bodies are therefore pitched up four (4) degrees more than the Mid Bodies when on the ground
   • Using the M20R POH side view dimensions, it appears that the prop tip is about 113 inches from the center of the main landing gear  (the arm of the angle of pitch when sitting on the landing on ground)
   • This will create about 7-8 inches of additional ground clearance for the prop tip on the Long Bodies. as compared to Mid Bodies
2. The greater prop clearance on Long Bodies is important for a couple reasons
   • The Acclaim prop diameter is 76 in vs 74 in for the Mid Body M20J.
   • Also there is about 200 - 250 lb more weight on the nose gear of a Long Body than on a Mid body Lycoming 360
     • 2 more cylinders, intake, exhaust, etc. plus turbo and intercoolers on Acclaim, Bravo, more cowling and heavier prop
     • However the nose gear on a heavier Long Body sits on the same 3 lord discs as a Short or Mid Body nose gear with the lighter Lycoming 360
     • If you bounce the nose upon landing in a Long Body, the shock dics will compress faster and further than a Short or Mid Body 
3. The greater nose up on the Long Bodies, although just a few degrees changes the sight picture when touching down.
   • A Mooney pilot that is used to a Mid Body, may land (touch down) too flat until they adjust to a higher, more nose up final flare at touchdown

So a few things might conspire when a new pilot/owner first learns to land a Long Body.   If you land too flat you might drive the nose in and/or bounce the nose gear starting an oscillating bounce (porpoise).   The greater weight on the nose will create a bigger bounce oscillation.  However, the greater prop clearance may save you if you can arrest the porpoise.

New owners of Rocket 305 or Missile 300 conversions of Mid Bodies have to be really careful.   The prop clearance is less than the Mid Body M20J and there is the extra approx 200 lbs on the nose.  Dirt or grass runways are an invitation for disaster.  Any rough or soft patches after the nose touches down (or in high speed taxi) will cause nose oscillation and on the down stroke greatly compresses the 3 Lord discs which can drive the prop tips into the dirt. There is a topic of a Missile owner that did just that at Oshkosh a few years ago.  The plane was AOG for weeks.

Appreciate the detailed write-up.  I was going to ask about the Rocket and Missile, then read your last paragraph.  I've been very tempted to pursue a Missile for years.  Are tail strikes common with the long body (when working to get the nose up)?  Intuitively, the mid-body six cylinder M20's have always looked balanced and correct to me (if it looks good it'll fly); the long bodies, a bit long in the tail; the F's and J's a little short in the nose.   

[LANCECASPER]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:05 PM, DCarlton said:

Is it difficult to transition to a long body and never become another prop strike statistic? I think there’s one for sale right now with two prop strikes and engine tear downs within a year or two.  That would really really suck.  

It's not difficult it's just different. From 1993-96 I had several hundred hours in a 231 and then bought a Bravo at the factory. Back then as my quick insurance checkout, Mooney sent me up with a Mooney test pilot and he told me to forget everything I knew about the 231 and just learn how to fly and land the Bravo, which was good advice, not to compare the two,  expecting it to handle a certain way. By the time I went to Flight Safety for the included Mooney course a couple months later I could land it better than I did my 231.

The Bravo was heavier so I carried a little power until I was over the runway and then smoothly pulled out power and "let it land". Years later after owning two Bravos I was out of flying Mooneys for a few years and bought an Encore (mid-body). It felt awkward until I got used to it. After some practice it felt natural again. Same when I went back to an Ovation, then Bravo then Acclaim. One thing I'll say about the Acclaim prop is that when you chop the power it drops a lot more quickly, so you need to just be aware of that. But common sense prevails, don't try to force any airplane to land. When you're learning that airplane, if it starts to look bad or bounces and is still flying - probably better off to go-around and start over rather than trying to salvage something that's not working. The new long body owner prop strike comes from carrying in too much power and then trying to force it to do something it's not ready to do yet (land).

[T. Peterson]

15 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

 

Actually there are few things going on with the Long Bodies:

1. As @Hank noted, the Long Bodies sit on the ground  five (5) degrees nose up.  The Airfacts Journal notes that the Mid Body M20J sat one (1) degree nose up
   • See the comment from Bob Fishman  https://airfactsjournal.com/2020/06/the-magical-mooney/
   • Assuming this to be accurate, the Long Bodies are therefore pitched up four (4) degrees more than the Mid Bodies when on the ground
   • Using the M20R POH side view dimensions, it appears that the prop tip is about 113 inches from the center of the main landing gear  (the arm of the angle of pitch when sitting on the landing on ground)
   • This will create about 7-8 inches of additional ground clearance for the prop tip on the Long Bodies. as compared to Mid Bodies
2. The greater prop clearance on Long Bodies is important for a couple reasons
   • The Acclaim prop diameter is 76 in vs 74 in for the Mid Body M20J.
   • Also there is about 200 - 250 lb more weight on the nose gear of a Long Body than on a Mid body Lycoming 360
     • 2 more cylinders, intake, exhaust, etc. plus turbo and intercoolers on Acclaim, Bravo, more cowling and heavier prop
     • However the nose gear on a heavier Long Body sits on the same 3 lord discs as a Short or Mid Body nose gear with the lighter Lycoming 360
     • If you bounce the nose upon landing in a Long Body, the shock dics will compress faster and further than a Short or Mid Body 
3. The greater nose up on the Long Bodies, although just a few degrees changes the sight picture when touching down.
   • A Mooney pilot that is used to a Mid Body, may land (touch down) too flat until they adjust to a higher, more nose up final flare at touchdown

So a few things might conspire when a new pilot/owner first learns to land a Long Body.   If you land too flat you might drive the nose in and/or bounce the nose gear starting an oscillating bounce (porpoise).   The greater weight on the nose will create a bigger bounce oscillation.  However, the greater prop clearance may save you if you can arrest the porpoise.

New owners of Rocket 305 or Missile 300 conversions of Mid Bodies have to be really careful.   The prop clearance is less than the Mid Body M20J and there is the extra approx 200 lbs on the nose.  Dirt or grass runways are an invitation for disaster.  Any rough or soft patches after the nose touches down (or in high speed taxi) will cause nose oscillation and on the down stroke greatly compresses the 3 Lord discs which can drive the prop tips into the dirt. There is a topic of a Missile owner that did just that at Oshkosh a few years ago.  The plane was AOG for weeks.

That was very educational. Thank you!!

[Schllc]

17 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

This will create about 7-8 inches of additional ground clearance for the prop tip on the Long Bodies. as compared to Mid Bodies

I do not believe that there is an additional 7” of prop clearance on a long body. 
I would have to measure to make sure but for some reason 13” seems to be what I remember for the clearance on my acclaim, maybe a little less.
Im pretty sure that mid body prop is more than 5” from the ground. 

Prop strikes are 100% a result of too much speed and or forcing the plane to the ground. 
I don’t have a lot of time in a mid body, but I have about 1,000 hours in long bodies and all you have to do is fly it all the way to the ground.  There is no flare. 
if there is one tip I would give to anyone transitioning to a Mooney it’s let it land when it’s ready, and if you need to, go around.
Once you get the feel of the plane, it is much easier to land than anything else I have flown.  It handles cross winds better than a Cessna, and has good rude authority all the way to the ground. 
Like @LANCECASPER said. It is not hard,  but it is definitely different. 

[Pinecone]

On 12/9/2023 at 8:30 PM, Hank said:

Mid-bodies are 10" longer, 5" for back seat legroom, 5" for additional baggage space. M20-F through K. Lycoming 4-cylinder engines, F-J (all but G are fuel injected 200 hp); Lycoming 6-cylinder turbo in the various versions of the K, 210 hp and up).

Long bodies have Continental 6-cylinder engines, except the rare L with the orphaned Porsche single-lever engine. They are a little more than 2 feet longer, partly for the extra cylinders, partly added baggage space to help balance the engine weight. M20-L through V. 

All Ks are Continental engines.  TSIO-360 in various flavors (-GB, -LB, -MB, -SB) with 210 HP, except -SB at 220 HP (Encore and Encore spec 252).

M20M, long body, Lycoming engine (as others have mentioned).