gabez Posted November 13, 2023 Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 well...again trying to get this plane sorted out. I noticed the fuel flow on the engine driven pump has been moving a lot on take off, it was 23, then I saw 20, we adjust it back to ~25. it then went to 27-28. On friday after 1.5 hrs of just flying strong....boom loss power, turned the low boost on and it came back. landed the plane at the airport and pulled the logs. it looks obvious to me, fuel flow goes down, all 6 EGT spike and then cool down. We gonna need to send the pump out but I welcome any thoughts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted November 13, 2023 Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 46 minutes ago, gabez said: well...again trying to get this plane sorted out. I noticed the fuel flow on the engine driven pump has been moving a lot on take off, it was 23, then I saw 20, we adjust it back to ~25. it then went to 27-28. On friday after 1.5 hrs of just flying strong....boom loss power, turned the low boost on and it came back. landed the plane at the airport and pulled the logs. Can you feel those fluctuations in the seat of your pants? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted November 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 5 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said: Can you feel those fluctuations in the seat of your pants? oh yeah...when the engine quits a life has gone....you only want that to happen on the ground 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted November 13, 2023 Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 minute ago, gabez said: oh yeah...when the engine quits a life has gone....you only want that to happen on the ground "Engine quits" clears it up. The reason I ask is that my first suspicion is always "the gauge" or "indicator" if there is one for the component or system being investigated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted November 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 1 minute ago, Fly Boomer said: "Engine quits" clears it up. The reason I ask is that my first suspicion is always "the gauge" or "indicator" if there is one for the component or system being investigated. yeah defiantly for the fuel flow, I have 2, the OEM + the G2 they both match. I don't fully understand how the mechanical pump works but I was told they usually just failed they don't fluctuate but maybe one some here knows what's up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted November 13, 2023 Report Share Posted November 13, 2023 2 hours ago, gabez said: yeah defiantly for the fuel flow, I have 2, the OEM + the G2 they both match. I don't fully understand how the mechanical pump works but I was told they usually just failed they don't fluctuate but maybe one some here knows what's up If that's what it turns out to be, a few years ago, Kortopates recommended Aircraft Accessories of Oklahoma 2740 North Sheridan Road Tulsa, Oklahoma 74115 800-255-9924 in this thread https://mooneyspace.com/topic/29161-tsio-360-fuel-pump/ Probably will require a fuel system setup after replacing the pump. There are about 999 ways out of a thousand to screw this up, so take it to someone who knows what they are doing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted November 14, 2023 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2023 23 hours ago, Fly Boomer said: If that's what it turns out to be, a few years ago, Kortopates recommended Aircraft Accessories of Oklahoma 2740 North Sheridan Road Tulsa, Oklahoma 74115 800-255-9924 in this thread https://mooneyspace.com/topic/29161-tsio-360-fuel-pump/ Probably will require a fuel system setup after replacing the pump. There are about 999 ways out of a thousand to screw this up, so take it to someone who knows what they are doing. We are sending the pump and the flow distributor to D&G Supply. Hopefully a quick turn around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted January 7 Author Report Share Posted January 7 (edited) So we got the pump and the flow divider back. I put about 5 hrs on it, climb to 15K few flights around, all was good. Then today i had problems again, here is the chain of events: Sump all the tanks, no water Started the plane all good Run up all good Took of to 12,500 towards modesto -> all good Got to 12,500 feet all good after leveling: Reduced power to 30 MP, RPM to 2400 During the leaning procedure after hitting 11 GPH it suddenly dropped Turned on the boost pump (low) engine came back Turned around towards watsonville and initiated a slow decent (i was just passed the hills at hollister) I then turned off the boost pump, flew for a bit and the problem cameback from the graphs you can see i had 5 fuel flow loss the boost pump (low) always made it came back sometime for a few minutes on the 4th for about 30m the orange line is the fuel flow We fixed the tanks, rebuilt the fuel pump and flow divider. Rebuilt the fuel selector and gascolator. Rebuilt the mags and re place all the sparkplugs. Top end is new, bottom is from 2016 with 800 hrs. Any idea what could cause this? Note: the EGT probe on 5 needs to be replaced (Green) hence is all over the place Thank you Edited January 7 by gabez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 1 hour ago, gabez said: We fixed the tanks, rebuilt the fuel pump and flow divider. Rebuilt the fuel selector and gascolator. Rebuilt the mags and re place all the sparkplugs. Top end is new, bottom is from 2016 with 800 hrs. Any idea what could cause this? I'm no help with engine monitor analysis, but I would not assume that all the things you have replaced or overhauled are above reproach. I have read a lot of stories about infant mortality of components both new and overhauled. Or a Mike Busch favorite: Maintenance Induced Failures -- things that go south while you are working on something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N201MKTurbo Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 I was reading an article from Kelly. It mentioned that debris under the fuel pump relief valve can cause the engine to quit. Perhaps, you have some contamination in your fuel system. http://www.kellyaerospace.com/articles/ContinuousFlow.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted January 8 Author Report Share Posted January 8 49 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said: I was reading an article from Kelly. It mentioned that debris under the fuel pump relief valve can cause the engine to quit. Perhaps, you have some contamination in your fuel system. http://www.kellyaerospace.com/articles/ContinuousFlow.pdf that's a good one, tho it wouldn't explain the boost pump getting the flow back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzeleski Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 14 hours ago, gabez said: that's a good one, tho it wouldn't explain the boost pump getting the flow back up. It could. Flow creates pressure via resistance. So if you have something leaking pressure, adding more flow will increase the pressure since that leak is only so large and will cause resistance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takair Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 There are some threads in MS about Vapor lock on various models. Sometimes this is caused by a sharp bend or 90 degree fitting prior to the inlet of the pump. Boost pumps can reduce the issue because they create some pressure before the fitting. Ironically, sometimes fixing one issue might introduce this new issue in the form of new hardware or changes in orientation. Heat on the lines or junctions would compound the issue, as would altitude. Depending on where installed, fuel flow sensors also sometimes get oddball hardware that is not optimal. Look for 90degree elbows in the main fuel lines. See also prior threads on the topic. It is somewhat mysterious and not always intuitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted January 8 Author Report Share Posted January 8 51 minutes ago, takair said: There are some threads in MS about Vapor lock on various models. Sometimes this is caused by a sharp bend or 90 degree fitting prior to the inlet of the pump. Boost pumps can reduce the issue because they create some pressure before the fitting. Ironically, sometimes fixing one issue might introduce this new issue in the form of new hardware or changes in orientation. Heat on the lines or junctions would compound the issue, as would altitude. Depending on where installed, fuel flow sensors also sometimes get oddball hardware that is not optimal. Look for 90degree elbows in the main fuel lines. See also prior threads on the topic. It is somewhat mysterious and not always intuitive. you know. it does feel like vapor lock. I was climbing full power, 1200 FPM, 320 on the CHT and cowl flaps closed, then leveled and as I was leaning boom, FF dropped. and eventually after a few times of using the boost pump it went away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 On 1/8/2024 at 11:00 AM, gabez said: you know. it does feel like vapor lock. I was climbing full power, 1200 FPM, 320 on the CHT and cowl flaps closed, then leveled and as I was leaning boom, FF dropped. and eventually after a few times of using the boost pump it went away. If you were flying full power, 1200 FPM, with 320 degrees F CHT with the cowl flaps closed, on a TSIO-360-LB engine you were either flying over Antartica or your CHT probe or gauge is way off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabez Posted January 13 Author Report Share Posted January 13 (edited) 20 hours ago, 1980Mooney said: As @LANCECASPER said, those are some pretty strange numbers even before you experience your fuel/engine upset. It is unlikely that all your cylinder head temp probes in the graphs above are reading in error the same amount. As you probably know the Continental fuel system differs from the Lycoming in that is relies completely upon differential fuel pressure I assume that your plane ran fine before this fuel pressure issue first appeared and before you "fixed the tanks, rebuilt the fuel pump and flow divider. Rebuilt the fuel selector and gascolator." After installing the new fuel pump and other work on the fuel system, did your mechanic set the pressures and fuel system up per SID97-3 with Continental Gauges/ on the metered and unmetered fuel lines per procedure? Does he ever see the pressure jumping around on the Continental gauges? Since you disrupted the fuel system are you sure that you don't have contaminants in the system? (as @N201MKTurbo mentioned) See the comments about "Contaminants" in the Aviation Pros article and how they show up on the pressure test - https://www.aviationpros.com/engines-components/aircraft-engines/piston-engine-maintenance/article/10378329/tcm-fuel-system Yes the fuel system was recalibrated after installation. Now I wasn't there when he did. Everything was drained and purged. Also, before my last issue, I had flown about 6 hrs before taking the plane at 15K and just circling the area mostly to rebuild confidence. I also did a cross country to Paso Robles and no issues. that is 50-60 gallons of fuel have gone through the system with zero issues I guess the part that I am the most confused (and it is strictly ignorance on my part) is why the electric boost pump brings the engine back up and then when I switch it off eventually the mechanical pump is okay anyway, we checked everything again over the past week, and we did find the left tank vent was not flushed, see pic, (I was on the left tank) so not sure if there was a partial vent issue. I haven't flown since tho so I will report back. I am also attaching my CHT, at that point I was 4K feet climbing 1Kf/minute, you can see the FF at 24 GPH thank you Edited January 13 by gabez added more content Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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