Current install cost of Garmin 650xi and 750xi

[Mark89114]

My 430W screens are failing fast and I decided rather than fix the old ones to squander some money.

Local on the field avionics shop is quoting me $17K for the install of a 650xi and in the meantime I have decided to go all in and get a 750xi, so will be waiting on that piece quote as well.

First of all, it all seems expensive so I have gotten use to that and just going to spend it regardless.  

 

Going to keep and repair one of the 430W unless someone convinces me differently.  Just started this thought process.

[alextstone]

As a general rule of thumb, look up the cost of the unit itself and then double that to account for install labor and inevitable surprises.

 

[Ragsf15e]

Yes, unfortunately, the previous racks (and potentially the antennas too) will have to be replaced, so it’s pretty good panel surgery.

if you’re looking for options (I like garmin), Avidyne has a nice slide in touch screen option that would be half the price or less as it can use the 430w rack.

[Cruiser]

Unless you have or plan to have other Garmin avionics, the Avidyne is an excellent choice. Going from a GTN430 to and IFD540 is not a simple slide in replacement however. 

 

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Cruiser said:

Unless you have or plan to have other Garmin avionics, the Avidyne is an excellent choice. Going from a GTN430 to and IFD540 is not a simple slide in replacement however. 

 

If the GNS430 is a W (waas), it's pretty simple since they use the same wiring and antenna. If the Garmin 430 is not WAAS then it needs a new antenna and coaxial.

I replaced a Garmin GNS530W with an Avidyne IFD540 and a Garmin GNS430W with an Avidyne IFD440 in a previous airplane.

On each unit it took about 10-15 minutes to take pictures of all of the configurations, a couple minutes to slide the old one out and the new one in, and then 15-20 minutes to enter the configurations into each of the new units. Both units took about an hour total. My IA "observed" me while he was doing other work on the airplane and signed off, although it's debatable whether  you need a sign-off. Every time there was a Software (or Firmware once) I was able to do it myself and save a trip to the avionics shop and my IA would sign off on it. With the software updates and the IFD100 iPad app the units kept getting more capable and with built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, no need for an FS210 that the Garmins require for full functionality.

I was very pleased with the units. Once I took a Gary Reeves course on the units I really enjoyed using them.

[OR75]

44 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

If the GNS430 is a W (waas), it's pretty simple since they use the same wiring and antenna. If the Garmin 43o is not WAAS then it needs a new antenna and coaxial.

I replaced a Garmin GNS530W with an Avidyne IFD540 and a Garmin GNS430W with an Avidyne IFD440 in a previous airplane.

On each unit it took about 10-15 minutes to take pictures of all of the configurations, a couple minutes to slide the old one out and the new one in, and then 15-20 minutes to enter the configurations into each of the new units. Both units took about an hour total. My IA "observed" me while he was doing other work on the airplane and signed off, although it's debatable whether  you need a sign-off. Every time there was a Software (or Firmware once) i was able to do it myself and save a trip to the avionics shop. With the software updates and the IFD100 iPad app the units kept getting more capable and with built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, no need for an FS210 that the Garmin require for full functionality.

I was very pleased with the units. Once I took a Gary Reeves course on the units I really enjoyed using them.

I ll add to that .... that it may not be a bad idea to actually write somewhere / or take pictures of all the configurations screens even if you are not planning for a swap (in case a unit decides to suddenly not power)      

[Tim-37419]

I just had a 650 put in place of a 430 by Sarasota. Cost was ~13k and they keep the 430.

 

Experience was mediocre but not disasaterous by any means. If you  PM me, I'll share the details 

[vik]

1 hour ago, LANCECASPER said:

If the Garmin 430 is not WAAS then it needs a new antenna and coaxial.

Really? I'd like to see how the "WAAS" antenna is different from "non-WAAS" and especially how the coax cable knows the difference between "WAAS" and "non-WAAS" information it is conducting! 

[N201MKTurbo]

15 minutes ago, vik said:

Really? I'd like to see how the "WAAS" antenna is different from "non-WAAS" and especially how the coax cable knows the difference between "WAAS" and "non-WAAS" information it is conducting! 

the WAAS antenna has higher gain and a tighter main lobe. But most importantly, it has been tested to the specifications required to be certified to fly WAAS approaches. If you don't use a WAAS antenna, tour navigator will most likely work just fine, but you won't be in compliance with the STC for the installation.

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, vik said:

Really? I'd like to see how the "WAAS" antenna is different from "non-WAAS" and especially how the coax cable knows the difference between "WAAS" and "non-WAAS" information it is conducting! 

Only change out the antenna and coax if you want to follow the installation instructions and have it approved for legal approaches.

[RescueMunchkin]

1 hour ago, Tim-37419 said:

I just had a 650 put in place of a 430 by Sarasota. Cost was ~13k and they keep the 430.

 

Experience was mediocre but not disasaterous by any means. If you  PM me, I'll share the details 

Wow that sounds pretty crazy to me, being totally new to pricing avionics...how much is the 430 by itself worth?

[OR75]

2 hours ago, Tim-37419 said:

I just had a 650 put in place of a 430 by Sarasota. Cost was ~13k and they keep the 430.

 

Experience was mediocre but not disasaterous by any means. If you  PM me, I'll share the details 

the 650 requires a full re-wiring (if i understand correctly) while the 440 does not 

wondering what benefit you get with the 650 ? (that you would not get with the 440). I am assuming both units have about the same life runway (since they came up about the same time more or less) 

[PeteMc]

Regardless if the antenna itself is okay, how long ago was the cable installed?  Even if the shop says they can use the antenna, be sure they really look at the type and condition of the cable.  It's well worth swapping it out if there is any issue with the old antenna cable.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I was done with installing my avionics, the dealer who sold it to me (and.let me borrow some of his tools) asked how long it took. I said honestly it was about 70 hours. He said that sounds about right. At $150/hour, that is $10500.

Of course, I work cheap when I’m working on my stuff.

[Utah20Gflyer]

Avionics typically cost at least 50 percent of the hardware cost to install so that quote seems pretty typical.  The gps can connect to a lot of other things making it a fairly involved install.  
 

Most of the budget avionics people (myself included) drop down to the 175/355/375 series to get a good WAAS GPS navigator and save some money.   I paid 6200 for my 355 and then 3-4k for install, but prices are up a bit since then.  
 

Mine is paired with a GNC255a which suites my needs well.  

[PT20J]

I estimate labor at 50% equipment cost for a major upgrade (like G3X,G5, GFC 500, GTN combo). For removing and replacing a single unit it’s closer to 100%. Economies of scale. I think that’s why we see so many full panel upgrades being done. If you are happy with the rest of the panel, buy a used 430W or go with IFD. If you are going to replace the autopilot eventually with a GFC 500, do it all at once to do a cleaner installation and save money.

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, Mark89114 said:

My 430W screens are failing fast and I decided rather than fix the old ones to squander some money.

Local on the field avionics shop is quoting me $17K for the install of a 650xi and in the meantime I have decided to go all in and get a 750xi, so will be waiting on that piece quote as well.

First of all, it all seems expensive so I have gotten use to that and just going to spend it regardless.  

 

Going to keep and repair one of the 430W unless someone convinces me differently.  Just started this thought process.

One other thing… if you’re ever considering doing a gfc500, just stay completely garmin, forget the ifd.  There are plenty of people who have ifd’s working with gfc500, but enough horror stories that I wouldn’t go that route.

[DCarlton]

9 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

If the GNS430 is a W (waas), it's pretty simple since they use the same wiring and antenna. If the Garmin 430 is not WAAS then it needs a new antenna and coaxial.

I replaced a Garmin GNS530W with an Avidyne IFD540 and a Garmin GNS430W with an Avidyne IFD440 in a previous airplane.

On each unit it took about 10-15 minutes to take pictures of all of the configurations, a couple minutes to slide the old one out and the new one in, and then 15-20 minutes to enter the configurations into each of the new units. Both units took about an hour total. My IA "observed" me while he was doing other work on the airplane and signed off, although it's debatable whether  you need a sign-off. Every time there was a Software (or Firmware once) I was able to do it myself and save a trip to the avionics shop and my IA would sign off on it. With the software updates and the IFD100 iPad app the units kept getting more capable and with built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, no need for an FS210 that the Garmins require for full functionality.

I was very pleased with the units. Once I took a Gary Reeves course on the units I really enjoyed using them.

Did you find the IFD to be functionally superior to the older GNS or was it just a newer equivalent replacement?  

[LANCECASPER]

6 hours ago, DCarlton said:

Did you find the IFD to be functionally superior to the older GNS or was it just a newer equivalent replacement?  

The IFDs are light years ahead of the GNSs. With buttons and touchscreens it gives you a choice. So much more intuitive to enter a flight plan or approach. 

https://www.avidyne.com/fms-gps-nav-com/

[Ragsf15e]

16 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Avionics typically cost at least 50 percent of the hardware cost to install so that quote seems pretty typical.  The gps can connect to a lot of other things making it a fairly involved install.  
 

Most of the budget avionics people (myself included) drop down to the 175/355/375 series to get a good WAAS GPS navigator and save some money.   I paid 6200 for my 355 and then 3-4k for install, but prices are up a bit since then.  
 

Mine is paired with a GNC255a which suites my needs well.  

Do you also have a gfc500 autopilot?  I wonder if your primary gps doesn’t have a nav radio, can you still fly an ils with the autopilot using your nav radio (radio 2)?

[Utah20Gflyer]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Do you also have a gfc500 autopilot?  I wonder if your primary gps doesn’t have a nav radio, can you still fly an ils with the autopilot using your nav radio (radio 2)?

No autopilot yet, waiting for the bank account to recover from the last round of upgrades.  
 

looks like the auto pilot and nav sources would run through the dual GI275s.  I believe you would select the nav source there and the auto pilot would follow what is selected.  This is a guess however as I am light on autopilot knowledge and have no direct experience yet.  

[EricJ]

21 hours ago, vik said:

Really? I'd like to see how the "WAAS" antenna is different from "non-WAAS" and especially how the coax cable knows the difference between "WAAS" and "non-WAAS" information it is conducting! 

In the antenna itself it's primarily the antenna pattern to assure enough main lobe gain to get the signal from the geostationary satellite.   I think Garmin's antennas are active, too, so there may also be some differences in how they amplify the L1 and other signals.   The really advanced stuff (not TSO'd, I think, just other applications), does all of the processing in the antenna and just sends the digital location data output down to the display box.

But, yeah, the differences are subtle and a non-WAAS antenna may well work with a WAAS system but perhaps with some performance degradation.

[OR75]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

In the antenna itself it's primarily the antenna pattern to assure enough main lobe gain to get the signal from the geostationary satellite.   I think Garmin's antennas are active, too, so there may also be some differences in how they amplify the L1 and other signals.   The really advanced stuff (not TSO'd, I think, just other applications), does all of the processing in the antenna and just sends the digital location data output down to the display box.

But, yeah, the differences are subtle and a non-WAAS antenna may well work with a WAAS system but perhaps with some performance degradation.

had a discussion on that years ago with Garmin tech service (GA-56 vs GA35) and they mentioned that there wasn't such thing as a WAAS or Non-WAAS  antenna but rather a "match" between the antenna and the receiver

[EricJ]

12 minutes ago, OR75 said:

had a discussion on that years ago with Garmin tech service (GA-56 vs GA35) and they mentioned that there wasn't such thing as a WAAS or Non-WAAS  antenna but rather a "match" between the antenna and the receiver

There are different TSOs, ranging from C129 for non-WAAS (which doesn't seem to exist any more), to C144 which seems to encompass both, to C190, which is a fully WAAS-compliant antenna.    Which one is used determines the level of precision approaches that can be performed with compliant navigators (Gamma level, apparently, with Gamma 3 being things like LPV, from what I can gather).   The various TSOs cite different RTCA documents which probably have the detailed tech specs (I looked briefly for gain or antenna pattern specs, but they don't seem to be in the TSOs, which suggests they're in the RTCA docs).

Usually "matching" an antenna to a receiver implies impedance matching, which isn't a big deal, and matching the antenna gain to the tuning range, which also isn't a big deal.    I'd expect those to be very similar across any of the candidates.    From what I've seen that's consistent in other literature the technical difference is the antenna pattern and "mask", which controls the shape of the pattern and sidelobes.   The differences aren't expected to be large, but enough that there are different TSOs and those TSO differences enable different levels of approaches to be used depending on which antenna you have installed.

[Tim-37419]

22 hours ago, RescueMunchkin said:

Wow that sounds pretty crazy to me, being totally new to pricing avionics...how much is the 430 by itself worth?

I’d have to check eBay but am guessing 2 to 3k