Buyer Beware!!! N432AE M20F in NY

[jetdriven]

If the plane is geared up and ALL of the damaged parts are replaced, then is it damage history?  For example, ours recieved all factory new gear doors, belly skins, antennas, pitot tube, prop, and an overhauled engine.  There is nothing remaining on the aircraft that touched the ground.  Is it still damaged? How does it difer from the one parked next to it that has never been on its belly?

Perhaps Jimmy Garrison is right.  It is a marketing issue.  Must be only dummies buy previously damaged airplanes. I did. 

I agree, previous repairs that are not in the logbook are a serious deal.  However, if it was a proper repair, you can still document it and be able to sell it. After all, it did fly 40 years without the wing falling off.

Quote: allsmiles

If I had an airplane that had 2 gear ups I wouldn't want to see the difference either! Same for you Byron! But as a buyer I would! Give me a fxxxxxg break! 

Look, you can't diminish the fact that when something unforseen and outside the normal wear and tear happens to an airplane that impacts it, it is called DAMAGE and requires repairs. This is not classified as routine maintenance but as damage repair. The goal to everyone's advantage is to restore AW. There are proper ways to do this following guidlines set forth in full daylight fully logging it without trying to cover it up. This is what neutralizes the damage history: proper repairs fully disclosed and properly logged. Not playing semantics with the words, like Bill Clinton: what is tbe definition of "is" ?!

 

[PTK]

Quote: danb35

Under FAR 1.1, repairs are maintenance.

[rbridges]

you can debate semantics, but there must be something to it.  Why does a plane with missing logs take longer to sell and sometimes sell at a lower price than a comparable plane with good documentation?  Although the plane may look and fly great, the owner wants to know its history as well as possible.

[jetdriven]

So is a gear up landing a major repair?

Major repair

means a repair:

 

That, if improperly done, might appreciably affect weight, balance [limits], structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

That is not done according to accepted practices or cannot be done by elementary operations.

Minor repair

means a repair other than a major repair.

[PTK]

Yes, a gearup landing is a Major Repair under FAR 1.1. It's not maintenance!

[Sabremech]

Allsmiles,

You still fail to understand that the word damage is negated by maintenance. 

[PTK]

Quote: Sabremech

Allsmiles,

You still fail to understand that the word damage is negated by maintenance. 

[Sabremech]

A gear up does not mandate that it be classified as a major repair. Do you know where in the FAR's that it classifies what is major or minor?

I'm interested in hearing your opinion as to whether you think a gear up takes value or adds value to a Mooney and more importantly, why?

[jetdriven]

What I find funny in all this is a dentist with "Some things are best left to professionals" in his signature is giving flying advice to a 747 captain, and maintenance advice to an A&P-IA who maintains everything from a P-51 to a jet.

The internet sure has made life interesting.

[PTK]

Quote: Sabremech

A gear up does not mandate that it be classified as a major repair. Do you know where in the FAR's that it classifies what is major or minor?

I'm interested in hearing your opinion as to whether you think a gear up takes value or adds value to a Mooney and more importantly, why?

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: allsmiles

If I had an airplane that had 2 gear ups I wouldn't want to see the difference either! Same for you Byron! But as a buyer I would! Give me a fxxxxxg break! 

Look, you can't diminish the fact that when something unforseen and outside the normal wear and tear happens to an airplane that impacts it, it is called DAMAGE and requires repairs. This is not classified as routine maintenance but as damage repair. The goal to everyone's advantage is to restore AW. There are proper ways to do this following guidlines set forth in full daylight fully logging it without trying to cover it up. This is what neutralizes the damage history: proper repairs fully disclosed and properly logged. Not playing semantics with the words, like Bill Clinton: what is tbe definition of "is" ?!

 

[WardHolbrook]

Quote: jetdriven

If I had an airplane that had 2 gear ups I wouldn't want to see the difference either! Same for you Byron! But as a buyer I would! Give me a fxxxxxg break! 

Look, you can't diminish the fact that when something unforseen and outside the normal wear and tear happens to an airplane that impacts it, it is called DAMAGE and requires repairs. This is not classified as routine maintenance but as damage repair. The goal to everyone's advantage is to restore AW. There are proper ways to do this following guidlines set forth in full daylight fully logging it without trying to cover it up. This is what neutralizes the damage history: proper repairs fully disclosed and properly logged. Not playing semantics with the words, like Bill Clinton: what is tbe definition of "is" ?!

 

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

Yes, a gearup landing is a Major Repair under FAR 1.1. It's not maintenance!

[Shadrach]

Quote: allsmiles

Yes, a gearup landing is a Major Repair under FAR 1.1. It's not maintenance!

[PTK]

Quote: scottfromiowa

If I had an airplane that had 2 gear ups I wouldn't want to see the difference either! Same for you Byron! But as a buyer I would! Give me a fxxxxxg break! 

Look, you can't diminish the fact that when something unforseen and outside the normal wear and tear happens to an airplane that impacts it, it is called DAMAGE and requires repairs. This is not classified as routine maintenance but as damage repair. The goal to everyone's advantage is to restore AW. There are proper ways to do this following guidlines set forth in full daylight fully logging it without trying to cover it up. This is what neutralizes the damage history: proper repairs fully disclosed and properly logged. Not playing semantics with the words, like Bill Clinton: what is tbe definition of "is" ?!

 

[scottfromiowa]

Quote: allsmiles

-If you remove OEM belly panels and replace with a one piece fiberglass belly have you improved the value of the aircraft?

-If you remove OEM clamshell nose gear doors and replace with overlapping "k" doors have you improved the value?

-If you have the engine with over 1850 hours since major overhauled to include all hoses, exhaust, mags, oil cooler...?

-If you install a new prop and overhauled governor have you improved the value of the aircraft?

The work completed was to remove damaged parts...is this a repair or maintenance?  This is semantics...If it is inspected and the work is quality the plane IS CLEARLY BETTER as a result of the "Repair/Maintenance".

If it doesn't impact (negatively) the airframe it is an UPGRADE.  If I pull a Garmin GNC300 and put in a 430 whether the radio was operating or not...IT'S AN UPGRADE. So...

"GIVE ME A F#@$ing BREAK"

[FlyDave]

I consider this thread a traumatic event and can no longer deal with it.

[PTK]

Quote: FlyDave

I consider this thread a traumatic event and can no longer deal with it.

[Bob]

Do we have to log traumatic events?  Do they go in the airframe log or pilot log?  My head hurts after reading this thread and I just want to get it the first time!

[DaV8or]

Quote: WardHolbrook

The problem is that there are those who would be willing to compromise themselves by trying to coverup, hide, or minimize "the reality" of their airplanes true history and current condition by manipulating the logs. We've all seen it. Some people are dishonest, some are liars, some cheat and some steal. Some of those people are pilots and some own airplanes.  

[gregwatts]

All of you "experts" used whatever info you chose to use. in your own purchases of an airplane. If you want to buy an airplane with........damge, maintenance,or repair history......then do so. If you want to use particular info to disqualify a purchase....then do so!

Stop trying to convince others that your own opinion is fact and that everyone else should subscribe to your opinions.

 

Just sayin'..........

[DaV8or]

Quote: gregwatts

Stop trying to convince others that your own opinion is fact and that everyone else should subscribe to your opinions.

 

Just sayin'..........

[Lionudakis]

Like everything else in aviation, politics, etc. The regs are well defined, yet leave a lot to interpretation. 

 

(1) That, if improperly done, might appreciably affect weight, balance, structural strength, performance, powerplant operation, flight characteristics, or other qualities affecting airworthiness; or

[aviatoreb]

Quote: gregwatts

All of you "experts" used whatever info you chose to use. in your own purchases of an airplane. If you want to buy an airplane with........damge, maintenance,or repair history......then do so. If you want to use particular info to disqualify a purchase....then do so!

Stop trying to convince others that your own opinion is fact and that everyone else should subscribe to your opinions.

 

Just sayin'..........

[Sabremech]

As an A&P/IA, I feel it is part of my profession to pass on reliable and factual information to potential airplane owners. That is my point of posting in this thread. I don't proclaim myself an expert, but can give you facts straight from the FAR's, AC's etc.

Everyone ultimately chooses their own airplane for various reasons. Don't let the myth of damage history be an automatic disqualifier. Look at the airplane that is in front of you today and evaluate it on it's present state of airworthiness. A good A&P or MSC will be able to give you a good idea of the airplanes current condition, which is more important than it's past.