natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 Was wondering how people handle bad mechanics in aviation. I'm sure it's taboo to just start throwing out names. I know customers can have a completely incorrect assessment of the situation, and mechanics might end up in a situation that's just downright wrong. At the same time, there's some times work that's just so blatantly bad, there's not much room for a grey area. Specifically, I went from one mechanic for an upgrade to the avionics, to another to fix some issues I noticed, and they've uncovered a wealth of wiring issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 About all you can do is not go back, just the same as any other service person. However if they did something unsafe, like used cheap vinyl speaker type wire or similar then maybe it ought to be brought to the FSDO’s attention, if you do that be sure to document your complaint with photos etc, a complaint with vague accusations doesn’t mean much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 People post pireps here from time to time, both good and bad for mechanics and shops. Getting feedback into the system is good, even though it is known to be noisy at times. When posting a negative review one always has to consider the implications to their own relationship with that individual or entity. Usually if I feel like I need to warn somebody away from a specific individual or shop I'll do it via PM or some other means that's a bit more discrete than a public post. Often the response is that they already know to stay away from that one, either from personal experience or multitude of other advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 10 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: About all you can do is not go back, just the same as any other service person. However if they did something unsafe, like used cheap vinyl speaker type wire or similar then maybe it ought to be brought to the FSDO’s attention, if you do that be sure to document your complaint with photos etc, a complaint with vague accusations doesn’t mean much. Be real careful with this strategy! If what you are finding is actually unairworthy and you keep flying....well, guess who you just called the FSDO on? YOU!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 21 minutes ago, A64Pilot said: About all you can do is not go back, just the same as any other service person. However if they did something unsafe, like used cheap vinyl speaker type wire or similar then maybe it ought to be brought to the FSDO’s attention, if you do that be sure to document your complaint with photos etc, a complaint with vague accusations doesn’t mean much. There was a mix of things I'd consider dangerous, and things I'd consider lazy. They lost the STC paperwork, didn't update w&b, didn't remove wiring, didn't cap any of it, didn't uninstall the diplexer, didn't put on backshells, didn't use any ground blocks, etc. The weirdest part they did was spliced wiring for all the HSDB cables to all the avionics. Like three different cables. When I took off, ADSB immediately crapped out and tower told me they lost me. I'd consider that more dangerous. I knew I needed to find a different mechanic so I didn't go back, I just flew to my home airport and called around. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dialed In Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 It really depends on the depth of the issue. I guess what I normally do is take pictures and contact the shop that did the work. A lot of times the Forman or owner do not know about these issues, it could just be a bad mechanic and they have not caught onto them yet. You could go on to tell them how poor the quality is and if they are work a damn they will stand behind the work. If it’s bad enough you could report them to the FSDO but be prepared if the FSDO wants to inspect the plane. Most of the time I just end up eating it after talking to the shop. You should at least give them the option to make it right though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 21 minutes ago, EricJ said: People post pireps here from time to time, both good and bad for mechanics and shops. Getting feedback into the system is good, even though it is known to be noisy at times. When posting a negative review one always has to consider the implications to their own relationship with that individual or entity. Usually if I feel like I need to warn somebody away from a specific individual or shop I'll do it via PM or some other means that's a bit more discrete than a public post. Often the response is that they already know to stay away from that one, either from personal experience or multitude of other advice. I'll make a tinder-like site for mechanics shops, just rating each one from 1-5. Anonymously, no comments. :-D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 36 minutes ago, Dialed In said: It really depends on the depth of the issue. I guess what I normally do is take pictures and contact the shop that did the work. A lot of times the Forman or owner do not know about these issues, it could just be a bad mechanic and they have not caught onto them yet. You could go on to tell them how poor the quality is and if they are work a damn they will stand behind the work. If it’s bad enough you could report them to the FSDO but be prepared if the FSDO wants to inspect the plane. Most of the time I just end up eating it after talking to the shop. You should at least give them the option to make it right though. Yeah, I did send the mechanic a text about it and none of his responses were assuring or requesting to right any wrongs. Also @Dialed In I wouldn't give them the chance to touch my plane again. If they asked for me to come back so they could take a look at it, there's just no way I'd say yes. There's also grease on the interior that wasn't there before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 1 hour ago, MikeOH said: Be real careful with this strategy! If what you are finding is actually unairworthy and you keep flying....well, guess who you just called the FSDO on? YOU!! If it’s actually un-airworthy, would you continue to fly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, natdm said: There was a mix of things I'd consider dangerous, and things I'd consider lazy. They lost the STC paperwork, didn't update w&b, didn't remove wiring, didn't cap any of it, didn't uninstall the diplexer, didn't put on backshells, didn't use any ground blocks, etc. The weirdest part they did was spliced wiring for all the HSDB cables to all the avionics. Like three different cables. When I took off, ADSB immediately crapped out and tower told me they lost me. I'd consider that more dangerous. I knew I needed to find a different mechanic so I didn't go back, I just flew to my home airport and called around. In my opinion you need to call the FSDO, not filling out the STC is something they will take a very dim view of, same for not doing the W&B, these are things specifically called out in the FAR’s there is no wiggle room there, wiring could I guess be arguable, but when taken with the other “offenses” it’s pretty damning. Sure the FSDO could ask to see the work, but you’re getting it fixed anyway aren’t you? I think a few pics and a document stating discrepancies is enough. Way I see it is your not being vindictive and your probably realistic enough to know your not getting money back either, but as a min your saving some other poor guy the same pain, and if your first flight had been a departure into low IFR, how would that have gone? FSDO isn’t going to haul him off to jail, but will likely keep an eye out. I have seen Certificates suspended though for repeat offenders just like for a pilot who has done something stupid, oddly it was for Avionics Edited July 12, 2023 by A64Pilot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 8 minutes ago, M20Doc said: This speaks to testing the new equipment and reviewing the paperwork before you hand over the final payment. I’m glad we have an Avionics licensing system in Canada. No run of the mill maintainers need apply, it’s a specialty. Absolutely true and I learned my lesson. There were a lot of red flags I won't ignore again. The initial deal was to take a 430 as part of the payment, and bill for the rest. I should have asked for the full bill, and they can buy it off of me outside of that. I knew I was f'd when they barely wanted to talk to me afterwards, and asked for no additional payment. Meaning there's no billed work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 11 minutes ago, natdm said: Absolutely true and I learned my lesson. There were a lot of red flags I won't ignore again. The initial deal was to take a 430 as part of the payment, and bill for the rest. I should have asked for the full bill, and they can buy it off of me outside of that. I knew I was f'd when they barely wanted to talk to me afterwards, and asked for no additional payment. Meaning there's no billed work done. Am I interpreting this correctly? You had avionics work done, gave them the 430, and didn't receive any bill??? What, exactly, did you have done? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 12, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 14 minutes ago, MikeOH said: Am I interpreting this correctly? You had avionics work done, gave them the 430, and didn't receive any bill??? What, exactly, did you have done? A "quick job" of swapping out two 430w's with a 650xi and 355. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fly Boomer Posted July 12, 2023 Report Share Posted July 12, 2023 5 hours ago, natdm said: Was wondering how people handle bad mechanics in aviation. I'm sure it's taboo to just start throwing out names. I know customers can have a completely incorrect assessment of the situation, and mechanics might end up in a situation that's just downright wrong. At the same time, there's some times work that's just so blatantly bad, there's not much room for a grey area. Specifically, I went from one mechanic for an upgrade to the avionics, to another to fix some issues I noticed, and they've uncovered a wealth of wiring issues. Be careful about explicit names or even dropping hints that allow implicit identification of the shop. If it's one of the widely revered shops, you'll get your azz handed to you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeOH Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, M20Doc said: Why should the revered shops get a free pass when the lowly A&P may not get named but still gets lambasted? Do you have a lawyer on retainer? I'd bet the large 'revered' shops do! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exM20K Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 9 hours ago, natdm said: Was wondering how people handle bad mechanics in aviation How would you handle a "bad" electrician, plumber, doctor, or lawyer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 2 hours ago, MikeOH said: Do you have a lawyer on retainer? I'd bet the large 'revered' shops do! All that does is enrich the lawyer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LANCECASPER Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 13 hours ago, natdm said: A "quick job" of swapping out two 430w's with a 650xi and 355. That's not a quick job, if done correctly. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A64Pilot Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 13 hours ago, M20Doc said: This speaks to testing the new equipment and reviewing the paperwork before you hand over the final payment. I’m glad we have an Avionics licensing system in Canada. No run of the mill maintainers need apply, it’s a specialty. We have specialists here too, but it’s not required to install Avionics, but it is to repair them. If I were having new Avionics installed I’d try to make sure it’s an Avionics shop and that the installer is at least working under the supervision of an FCC license holder, not an A&P. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinecone Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 41 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said: That's not a quick job, if done correctly. No, but a used 430W is selling for over $6000 on eBay today. So it may well be that the shops would do the labor for keeping the 430Ws. If the supplied the 650Xi and 355, I would wonder. The 650Xi lists for $13595. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Mooney Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Pinecone said: No, but a used 430W is selling for over $6000 on eBay today. So it may well be that the shops would do the labor for keeping the 430Ws. If the supplied the 650Xi and 355, I would wonder. The 650Xi lists for $13595. 14 hours ago, natdm said: A "quick job" of swapping out two 430w's with a 650xi and 355. 14 hours ago, natdm said: Absolutely true and I learned my lesson. There were a lot of red flags I won't ignore again. The initial deal was to take a 430 as part of the payment, and bill for the rest. I should have asked for the full bill, and they can buy it off of me outside of that. I knew I was f'd when they barely wanted to talk to me afterwards, and asked for no additional payment. Meaning there's no billed work done. If I understand correctly, you traded 2 used 430W's for a 650xi and a 355 - and there was no additional charge for the 650xi or 355 and no charge for installation/labor? Were the 650xi and 355 new and did you get a warranty? Edited July 13, 2023 by 1980Mooney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 33 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said: If I understand correctly, you traded 2 used 430W's for a 650xi and a 355 - and there was no additional charge for the 650xi or 355 and no charge for installation/labor? Were the 650xi and 355 new and did you get a warranty? One used 430w "traded" for labor (which isn't what I had expected, I expected to get billed, and sell one to the mechanic, not some sketch deal). Sold the other. I bought the other two units new elsewhere, gave them to the shop in the boxes they came in. They came with warranties, but the devices are fine, no need to use the warranties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 10 hours ago, exM20K said: How would you handle a "bad" electrician, plumber, doctor, or lawyer? I think all of those are dramatically different. A bad plumber, I'd leave a bad review. A bad doctor or lawyer, those are much more grave. Aviation is different, as it's community-centric and none of the above are. There are absolutely different aspects. I didn't know if people stay hush about bad mechanics (which it seems like it), or if they get a bit more loud about it, or what. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricJ Posted July 13, 2023 Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 1 hour ago, natdm said: Aviation is different, as it's community-centric and none of the above are. There are absolutely different aspects. I didn't know if people stay hush about bad mechanics (which it seems like it), or if they get a bit more loud about it, or what. People have left bad reviews here for a variety of mechanics and shops, so it is definitely not taboo to do so. It may burn a bridge, and it may get responses from those who feel that the maligned party, regardless of the situation, should be revered. So I think the reluctance to post bad reviews is just the usual social thing that there could be pushback. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natdm Posted July 13, 2023 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2023 @EricJ I just left a bad review on google, told any of my local friends about it, and that's about all I'll do. I also told Savvy which got them blacklisted. Sent pictures and all. Guess that's about the norm, sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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