First time leaving US in my Mooney for trip to Montreal, any tips?

[DXB]

Hi - In a couple of weeks I'm going to Montreal for work, very likely filing IFR for the trip there.  I'll be new to flying outside the US and have read all the  basic regulatory stuff and gotten the necessary docs and customs sticker.   What I'm hoping for guidance on:

1) Getting in and out of Montréal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International smoothly, including any experiences with customs, FBOs, and fees at that particular airport

2) Any gotchas regarding operating in the Canadian airspace system that would throw off a 1200 hr instrument rated private pilot.

Many thanks in advance!

[aviatoreb]

11 minutes ago, DXB said:

Hi - In a couple of weeks I'm going to Montreal for work, very likely filing IFR for the trip there.  I'll be new to flying outside the US and have read all the  basic regulatory stuff and gotten the necessary docs and customs sticker.   What I'm hoping for guidance on:

1) Getting in and out of Montréal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International smoothly, including any experiences with customs, FBOs, and fees at that particular airport

2) Any gotchas regarding operating in the Canadian airspace system that would throw off a 1200 hr instrument rated private pilot.

Many thanks in advance!

YUP!  I think you will be passing right close to me!  KPTD - feel free to stop by.

I am always slightly worried I will forget something or not know something that is peculiar to Canada operations, so I always file IFR.

Ill tell you one very important thing regarding Canada operations - when flying into an untoward airport the way they do patterns is distinctly different from USA patterns so please study up on standard Canada pattern entries so you can blend with the flow - AND - its not all that common for an individual airport to have a distinct pattern practice published that is different even from that.

E

[201er]

2 hours ago, DXB said:

2) Any gotchas regarding operating in the Canadian airspace system that would throw off a 1200 hr instrument rated private pilot.

Make sure you brush up on your Canadian. They sure talk funny over there.

[Ragsf15e]

Also, the clearance you’re read on the ground won’t include the frequency or even altitude in some cases.  Those are both on the departure procedure and you just assume they are correct unless you’re given something different.  You won’t be told to switch after takeoff either.  Just switch yourself before automatically contacting approach.  
However, sometimes they know you better than you know them, and they’ll be very clear with frequency and instructions especially if you ask.  I would just call myself “November 4044 November” the whole time instead of “Mooney 4044N” to fit in with their callsign protocol.

[DXB]

12 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Also, the clearance you’re read on the ground won’t include the frequency or even altitude in some cases.  Those are both on the departure procedure and you just assume they are correct unless you’re given something different.  You won’t be told to switch after takeoff either.  Just switch yourself before automatically contacting approach.  
However, sometimes they know you better than you know them, and they’ll be very clear with frequency and instructions especially if you ask.  I would just call myself “November 4044 November” the whole time instead of “Mooney 4044N” to fit in with their callsign protocol.

Super helpful - not being told to switch after takeoff would have confused me terribly.  Is there an altitude convention regarding when you switch?

[Ragsf15e]

1 minute ago, DXB said:

Super helpful - not being told to switch after takeoff would have confused me terribly.  Is there an altitude convention regarding when you switch?

I have seen it spelled out on some procedures, but that appeared to be the lowest altitude you could contact them based on terrain.  It would probably be best to look that one up in their regs to see what they expect normally.  I will say that at some places I used the “November 4044…” they explicitly switched me as I think they’re use to us southerners forgetting.

[0TreeLemur]

Do you have a transponder antenna on top of your aircraft?   I recall reading that all GA aircraft flying in Canadian airspace must broadcast ADS-B signals up to a satellite.   Since in the US our default transponder position is on the belly, this creates a need to add a second antenna on top.

[EricJ]

21 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Do you have a transponder antenna on top of your aircraft?   I recall reading that all GA aircraft flying in Canadian airspace must broadcast ADS-B signals up to a satellite.   Since in the US our default transponder position is on the belly, this creates a need to add a second antenna on top.

aka a "diversity" antenna.   Not all transponders can support it.

[Ragsf15e]

28 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

Do you have a transponder antenna on top of your aircraft?   I recall reading that all GA aircraft flying in Canadian airspace must broadcast ADS-B signals up to a satellite.   Since in the US our default transponder position is on the belly, this creates a need to add a second antenna on top.

It’s not required yet.  They’ve been putting it off for years.  Supposedly aug 10th, above fl180.  Below that is like in 2025 or later.

[alexz]

A

9 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

It’s not required yet.  They’ve been putting it off for years.  Supposedly aug 10th, above fl180.  Below that is like in 2025 or later.

And only if you fly above 12500 ft

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

Make sure you brush up on your Canadian. They sure talk funny over there.

From a man in New Jersey - Like you Blend

 

(but its French Quebecoise in Montreal .... ) 

[McMooney]

I'm planning on going in August, along with detroit, toronto, niag/buff, possible touch and go's in main/vt/mass, conneticut.

 

have to get those new england states off the list.

I really need to stop dragging my fieet on getting my 2nd or 3rd class medical, time is short

 

[Igor_U]

On 6/26/2023 at 11:47 AM, DXB said:

Hi - In a couple of weeks I'm going to Montreal for work, very likely filing IFR for the trip there.  I'll be new to flying outside the US and have read all the  basic regulatory stuff and gotten the necessary docs and customs sticker.   What I'm hoping for guidance on:

1) Getting in and out of Montréal-Pierre Elliott Trudeau International smoothly, including any experiences with customs, FBOs, and fees at that particular airport

2) Any gotchas regarding operating in the Canadian airspace system that would throw off a 1200 hr instrument rated private pilot.

Many thanks in advance!

Any reason going to Dorval (Trudeau) airport? I would suggest St. Hubert (CYHU) on the South shore for better prices. I haven't been there in ages but I remember CYUL being pricey with fuel and service as it's being intended for BizJets.

 

Good luck

[Ned Gravel]

2 hours ago, Igor_U said:

Any reason going to Dorval (Trudeau) airport? I would suggest St. Hubert (CYHU) on the South shore for better prices. I haven't been there in ages but I remember CYUL being pricey with fuel and service as it's being intended for BizJets.

 

Good luck

Don’t recall if St. Hubert is a port of entry. They are still not all back after COVID.  You may be required to use Dorval because it has an on-airfield customs post with CBSA folks for clearing international flights. 

[Scottknoll]

Not an expert, but I’m planning a trip to CSE4 Lachute. It’s listed as an AOE/CAN airport, so we are applying for Canpass private aircraft program. $40/person, good for 5 years. Opens more airports for entry, and from what I understand if an officer is not present at your designated ETA, you’re free to leave. CYHU looks like it’s an AOE/15 which I believe means you can arrive with up to 15 passengers. CYUL is AOE, but I don’t think you have to go there even if you aren’t a Canpass member. Canpass just opens up the AOE/CAN airports.

I’ve also always found the Canpass folks to be more than helpful at answering questions. 1-888-CANPASS

https://www.universalweather.com/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-canpass-for-business-aviation-part-1-what-is-canpass/

[A64Pilot]

Unless things have changed I’d be more worried about coming back, those are the ones that can be a pain.

I think the ADSB requirement may not be a diversity Xponder but maybe 1090 ADSB, which I think is pretty much standard for the rest of the world?

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2022/august/04/nav-canada-delays-ads-b-mandate

Edited June 29, 2023 by A64Pilot

[Jcmtl]

I am from montreal and have done the trip to and from the US at least a dozen times.  

Like some have said, do not fly into CYUL, landing fees in the hundreds of dollars.  I would clear customs either in Cornwall CYCC, Bromont CZBM or Mirabel CYMX.  Call the canpass number and let them give you some options but those are the ones i use.  If CYHU is an option for customs, go there and leave your plane there at the Pascan FBO.  

Someone mentioned something about not saying Mooney Nxxxx,  I say Mooney Nxxx all the time and they are not phased by it.  In fact, they will ask you what type you are flying and that just saves some time.  Some people speak french on the radio in quebec which i find to be completely ridiculous given that lots of pilots on the radio can't understand it.  Other than that, flying in Canada is virtually identical to flying in the states.  If flying into an uncontrolled field, the pattern entry procedure is different.  

In terms of xpndr, only mode c is required, nothing else.  

When you land, you call the same canpass number (you don't need to be a canpass member, but that phone number is for all ga arrivals) and tell them you've landed, that's literally it.  

Going back to the US is the most annoying part.  Filing eapis, calling customs at least 2 hours before, making an appointment, advising if the time changes, etc...  

Edit: just realized you said you are flying for work, if work is paying your landing fee then by all means, go to CYUL and spend $$$ parking at one of the FBOs there.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Jcmtl

[Ragsf15e]

11 hours ago, Scottknoll said:

Not an expert, but I’m planning a trip to CSE4 Lachute. It’s listed as an AOE/CAN airport, so we are applying for Canpass private aircraft program. $40/person, good for 5 years. Opens more airports for entry, and from what I understand if an officer is not present at your designated ETA, you’re free to leave. CYHU looks like it’s an AOE/15 which I believe means you can arrive with up to 15 passengers. CYUL is AOE, but I don’t think you have to go there even if you aren’t a Canpass member. Canpass just opens up the AOE/CAN airports.

I’ve also always found the Canpass folks to be more than helpful at answering questions. 1-888-CANPASS

https://www.universalweather.com/blog/what-you-need-to-know-about-canpass-for-business-aviation-part-1-what-is-canpass/

Be careful with the canpass rules.  I use a corporate canpass and i think thats the only one that allows you to bypass the customs call if they aren’t there waiting when you arrive.  The general aviation canpass just opens up the additional airfields but you still have to call.  The rules are pretty well spelled out but not perfect.  I was “roughed up” a bit in kelowna last week even though I was following the rules perfectly (for corporate).

[Ragsf15e]

Oh, also remember that you need both a departure and arrival eapis clearance for the US.  For canada, they only care about your flight into canada, not your departure.

[ohdub]

When I fly in the US, towers never seem to issue me a SID. I'm Canada, expect towers to issue you a SID if you are departing IFR. As a controller here in Canada, probably the most common mistake I see US GA pilots make when flying IFR is they blow the SID, I'm guessing it's that you're not used to getting them. Your cleared altitude on departure is listed in the SID along with heading/route to fly - don't climb to flight planned altitude and turn on course, fly the SID until cleared otherwise.

As others have mentioned, if you go into a non-towered airport, the 45 to downwind is not an accepted way of entering the traffic pattern in Canada. Either cross mid field at circuit altitude and join mid downwind, or if it doesn't conflict with other traffic you can enter direct into the downwind.

I've never flown into YUL, the fees are expensive, so unless it's right where you need to be for work and work is paying the bill, I think St. Hubert would be a better choice and they have customs there.

Have a great trip, Montreal is fun, I'm going there tomorrow. Be sure to visit the old city, it's like being in Europe.

Steve

[ohdub]

A few other things that pop to mind:

When you are cleared for an approach, altitude is your discretion (unless a restriction is issued). So if you are not yet established on the approach, you may use the MSA to descend lower if you wish.

We do not use the climb/descend via the SID/STAR phraseology. If you do fly into YUL you will get an RNAV STAR, all altitudes will be assigned by ATC, and you are to meet any published restrictions consistent with your cleared altitude. For example on a STAR, if a restriction is approaching that is below your cleared altitude, you remain at your cleared altitude, don't descend below your cleared altitude because of a STAR restriction. If ATC clears you lower and it's too close to the restriction for you to be able to make it, just let them know. Same idea applies to SIDs

Steve

[M20F]

Just mentioning because this came up in an airport conversation the other day but Basic Med is no go for Canada.  Had a guy planning a trip and didn’t realize.  

[DXB]

Thanks all for the many helpful tips - definitely keeping this thread bookmarked for the future.  I made some calls and CYUL is pretty expensive for the FBO (100/day on ramp, only fbo with 100LL is Shell Aerocenter at $8.29/gallon). The landing fee itself isn't too bad ($11/1000kg MGTW).  Plus they require using a special system for arrival and departure time slots at that particular field https://www.admtl.com/en/adm/safety/administration-and-permits-office.

Given the hassle and expense on a tight work travel schedule I decided to land in Plattsburg NY and rent a car this time.  

[Adverseyaw0317]

We’re those quoted numbers in CAD or USD? 

[PT20J]

Remember that you have to file US eAPIS both leaving and entering the US and receive an email. When entering the US, you have to call CBP before you depart and secure permission to land verbally.

Canada is simpler. You have to call 888-226-7277 before departure and give them the manifest info over the phone. This can take anywhere from 5 minutes to an hour on hold. Also, you can check with them regarding current availability of customs at various airports since staffing can change due to personnel shortages. Once you land, ask ground control where they want you to park for customs and call the same number again. They will ask a few questions and give you a confirmation number and you're good to go.

With both customs, everyone should remain in the airplane until cleared. And with US customs, God help you if someone removes anything from the airplane.

A VFR flight plan is required  if you do any VFR flying in Canada. Also, if you don't open it, it will be opened for you automatically at your ETD, so if you cancel the flight or are delayed be sure to call the Flight Information Center to update. The FIC contact info is in the Canadian Flight Supplement (CFS). Sometimes when you take off from a towered airport the tower will open the flight plan without asking; sometimes not. Best to check if there is any uncertainty. Same with closing flight plans at towered airports.

Many airports have Mandatory Frequencies that you are supposed to use to report your position and intentions.

Here's a good link to a simplified overview of Canadian Aviation Regulations: https://www.langleyflyingschool.com/Pages/Canadian Aviation Regulations.html

Canada really likes to carve up the airspace in busy areas and it can be confusing. IFR is the way to go in terminal areas unless you are familiar.

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