wombat Posted April 9, 2023 Report Posted April 9, 2023 (edited) @carusoam I don't know why but I think we don't yet quite understand each other. What you were saying is half of my point. We already expect more information from the seller than they are required to provide. We expect to be able to do a pre-buy. And look at the logs. And look at pictures of the plane. And none of those items are required by law. Even the minimal log information is only required *after* the sale. The other half is that if you want me to buy your plane you will need to send me not only the logbooks but any other information you have, such as oil analysis reports and engine monitor data. That's a requirement if you want me to buy your plane. I don't have to buy any specific plane. That plane might be special to their owner but I'm not the owner and it's just another plane. Some people won't buy a plane with damage history. I won't buy one where there exists engine monitor data unless I can look at it. No, I'm not buying the seller, but I am buying the condition they left the plane in. If the temp limit on the cylinders is 400F, I'm going to look through the engine monitor data to see if they have been exceeding it. They don't have to sell to me, but I don't have to buy from them either. Ideally they'll have nothing to hide and we can come to a mutually acceptable deal. Edited April 10, 2023 by wombat Quote
EricJ Posted April 9, 2023 Report Posted April 9, 2023 For people who are worried about their historical maintenance data being released to someone else without their permission, aircraft ownership may not be for you. Anyone, and I mean anyone with $10, can ask for the entirety of the FAA's records on your airplane. They'll send it to you on a CD, no questions asked. Quote
Pinecone Posted April 9, 2023 Report Posted April 9, 2023 Not exactly all the records. All the 337s. But not all maintenance. Quote
DXB Posted April 9, 2023 Report Posted April 9, 2023 On 4/5/2023 at 7:18 PM, GeeBee said: Nuance way. That is why you are there. Otherwise we could just do blood tests, have robot pop the tumor and it's over. Same with oil analysis. Mine is the same every time, but like my blood test, a change represents something good, or something bad. Just as in CRM we multi-source so too should we with our engine. Oil Analysis is not the be all, nor is engine trend data, nor is borescope. Taken all together however we get a "nuanced picture". When it come to my engine or my health I want all the data and sources I can get because that is effective resource management. Basically what I am saying is you're trying to analyze the value of something on its own. Few diagnostic tools have value solely on their own and to talk about the value of something isolated from all the other tools is IMHO not good resource management. You are misconstruing my point. I have not claimed that oil analysis has no value because it does not provide clear diagnostic information "on its own" - what I assert is quite to the contrary. I am saying that when used in conjunction with the other standard monitoring strategies that everyone should be doing for their piston aircraft engines, it adds zero value as a routine screening test based on the outcomes that matter - primarily safety, secondarily cost. To prove my point outright, one would need an experiment with owners randomized to two groups with oil analysis vs. no oil analysis while doing all the appropriate routine monitoring similarly and measure safety-related engine events and total expense. I am claiming the likelihood of zero benefit in the oil analysis group in such a prospective experiment simply because screening tests in the medical world with similar properties (e.g. limited sensitivity/specificity) have usually offered no net patient benefit in prospective randomized trials despite integration with all the other clinical information available. People should quit wasting time and (admittedly modest) money on oil analysis - and ignorance is appropriately bliss when it comes to those numbers on your Blackstone report and the company's vague shaman-like interpretative narratives on them. Those who are not already handy with using a borescope, looking at their top spark plugs, examining their filters and screens, tracking their oil consumption, and looking at their engine monitor data should focus on those skills instead. A further risk of oil analysis is that stable numbers on the report will delude the user into thinking no other monitoring is needed. 3 Quote
Pinecone Posted April 10, 2023 Report Posted April 10, 2023 Except there have been a couple of posts here where serious issues were caught using it. Quote
DXB Posted April 10, 2023 Report Posted April 10, 2023 4 hours ago, Pinecone said: Except there have been a couple of posts here where serious issues were caught using it. And in those instances the issue would have been clearly evident using the standard routine measures - e.g. simply looking at the oil filter medium - which might have been neglected too long based on excess confidence in oil analysis. If it's the oil analysis results after oil change that makes you bother to look in your filter then you're not doing it right. Quote
Pinecone Posted April 10, 2023 Report Posted April 10, 2023 I thought one of them was a few hours after an oil change with filter inspection. Quote
DXB Posted April 10, 2023 Report Posted April 10, 2023 31 minutes ago, Pinecone said: I thought one of them was a few hours after an oil change with filter inspection. Which one? It would be fun to dig a little deeper... Quote
wombat Posted April 10, 2023 Report Posted April 10, 2023 (edited) From @Greg Ellis, the message can be found on this thread on page 2. The content that we are talking about is as follows: Story number 2. I flew up to Kansas City from Texas. I had done an oil analysis prior to the flight. One drawback to Blackstone is that they seem to take a long time to get you your results. I was sitting in a restaurant in Kansas City and got a call from Blackstone which is never good when they call you. They advised me not to fly the airplane. I had a shop on the field take off the oil filter and it was a mess. This was on the engine that replaced the one in the previous story. It had about 450 hours on it and was flying great. No issues with temps or pressures or anything else. This took me totally by surprise. So we contacted the shop (a very well-known engine builder) that sold me this engine and they asked to have it back to be torn down and inspected. So, while my wife and I drove home, the shop in Kansas removed my engine and sent it back to the engine shop. I got a call from the engine shop with a laundry list of problems with the engine. They were laying the blame at my feet for a 450 hour engine going south. I contacted multiple A&P's for advice. They told me that this was not my problem and were almost unanimous in what the issue was that could cause the lengthy list of problems. So, back and forth with the engine shop I go until I get to the owner of the shop. He and I had a pleasant conversation over the phone and he basically told me I was on the hook for $14,000 and the cost was rising as they got further into it. I explained to him in detail how I fly the airplane and that this should not have happened. Well, I would say long story short but it has already dragged on long enough. I get a call a few weeks later saying they will cover all of the bill and I just have to pay for shipping. The point of this lengthy story is that if it wasn't for that analysis from Blackstone Labs, I would have flown a sick airplane from Kansas back to Fort Worth and who knows what might have happened during that flight home. Like I said, the engine was running great with absolutely no issues that I could discern if it wasn't for the analysis. Edited April 10, 2023 by wombat 1 Quote
carusoam Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 A few times MSers have seen high Si numbers… leading them to find a hole in their intake hose after the filter… a sign dirt is getting in the oil… a bad bearing can be found this way as well… bearings don’t go bad very often… you would want to know as soon as practical if one does… Somebody had a wrist pin get carved off as the pin came loose, leaving aluminum fleck in the oil… Oddly, ground cam lobes, carved wrist pins, and bearing bits… probably show up first in the oil filter…. Bearing bits are small enough and not aluminum and might get visually missed…. The smell of burning oil might get noticed… A spun bearing loses its oil hole alignment starving the surfaces from their ordinary level of oil… the parts will get red hot as they deteriorate… We have seen a few broken pistons and holes through the side of the engines around here… That first year of ownership can be extra tough… Best regards, -a- Quote
DXB Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 20 hours ago, wombat said: From @Greg Ellis, the message can be found on this thread on page 2. The content that we are talking about is as follows: Story number 2. I flew up to Kansas City from Texas. I had done an oil analysis prior to the flight. One drawback to Blackstone is that they seem to take a long time to get you your results. I was sitting in a restaurant in Kansas City and got a call from Blackstone which is never good when they call you. They advised me not to fly the airplane. I had a shop on the field take off the oil filter and it was a mess. This was on the engine that replaced the one in the previous story. It had about 450 hours on it and was flying great. No issues with temps or pressures or anything else. This took me totally by surprise. So we contacted the shop (a very well-known engine builder) that sold me this engine and they asked to have it back to be torn down and inspected. So, while my wife and I drove home, the shop in Kansas removed my engine and sent it back to the engine shop. I got a call from the engine shop with a laundry list of problems with the engine. They were laying the blame at my feet for a 450 hour engine going south. I contacted multiple A&P's for advice. They told me that this was not my problem and were almost unanimous in what the issue was that could cause the lengthy list of problems. So, back and forth with the engine shop I go until I get to the owner of the shop. He and I had a pleasant conversation over the phone and he basically told me I was on the hook for $14,000 and the cost was rising as they got further into it. I explained to him in detail how I fly the airplane and that this should not have happened. Well, I would say long story short but it has already dragged on long enough. I get a call a few weeks later saying they will cover all of the bill and I just have to pay for shipping. The point of this lengthy story is that if it wasn't for that analysis from Blackstone Labs, I would have flown a sick airplane from Kansas back to Fort Worth and who knows what might have happened during that flight home. Like I said, the engine was running great with absolutely no issues that I could discern if it wasn't for the analysis. Per the narrative, I'm not sure when, why, and how the poster pulled an oil sample here, but most people do oil analysis when changing the oil. Looking at the filter at the same time would have caught the issue earlier with far more definitive interpretation. In this context oil analysis added nothing. Quote
wombat Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 2 hours ago, DXB said: Per the narrative, I'm not sure when, why, and how the poster pulled an oil sample here, but most people do oil analysis when changing the oil. Looking at the filter at the same time would have caught the issue earlier with far more definitive interpretation. In this context oil analysis added nothing. The way I read it, @Greg Ellis had pulled the oil sample previously during a regularly scheduled oil change, and inspected the filter and found no metal. So looking at the filter at the same time did not catch the issue. In this context the oil analysis added a LOT. Quote
DXB Posted April 11, 2023 Report Posted April 11, 2023 24 minutes ago, wombat said: The way I read it, @Greg Ellis had pulled the oil sample previously during a regularly scheduled oil change, and inspected the filter and found no metal. So looking at the filter at the same time did not catch the issue. In this context the oil analysis added a LOT. Seems unlikely - perhaps unprecedented, which would make it a very notable event. Perhaps @Greg Ellis could clarify? Quote
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