Oops, pitot static transponder expires soon

[M20 Ogler]

So the plane can’t fly IFR if expired but is it 100% grounded until certified? Would I have to get a ferry permit to go to a certification shop?

[hubcap]

Still legal for VFR.

[PT20J]

You can operate VFR without current static, altimeter, and altitude encoder checks required by 91.411.

You can not operate a transponder that has not passed the tests required by 91.413. 

So you could only fly VFR in airspace where a transponder is not required by 91.215.

[midlifeflyer]

I hate to be "that guy" but, what do the words of the regulations say?

[GeeBee]

1 hour ago, midlifeflyer said:

I hate to be "that guy" but, what do the words of the regulations say?

What Skip said

[M20 Ogler]

Does anyone know who/where near Sacramento or East east bay area ti contact to get my plane pitot and transponder tested? 

[wombat]

No, @M20 Ogler your aircraft is not totally grounded and you don't need a ferry permit. Just talk to ATC before you enter any of the airspaces listed in 91.215 (b) for an authorized deviation and don't fly IFR in controlled airspace. The authorized deviation can be requested on the radio moments before you enter the airspace it's required for.  Alternatively you can take your transponder (without the plane) to a shop and have them bench test it.  At that point you can use it like normal but the rest of your static pressure system still needs to be tested before flying IFR in controlled airspace. (You could fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace if you wanted. )

Yes, @hubcap is mostly right, although that message lacks detail that could  get you into trouble.

Yes, @PT20J is completely correct.

 

And lucky for you, @midlifeflyer and @GeeBee I like to be 'that guy' providing authoritative references. 

§ 91.413 ATC transponder tests and inspections.

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-E/section-91.413

(a) No persons may use an ATC transponder that is specified in 91.215(a), 121.345(c), or § 135.143(c) of this chapter unless, within the preceding 24 calendar months, the ATC transponder has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendix F of part 43 of this chapter; and.... (More content here has been omitted by wombat; important but not relevant to this conversation)

 

§ 91.215 ATC transponder and altitude reporting equipment and use.

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-C/section-91.215

(b) All airspace.  Unless otherwise authorized or directed by ATC, and except as provided in paragraph (e)(1) of this section, no person may operate an aircraft in the airspace described in paragraphs (b)(1) through (5) of this section, unless that aircraft is equipped with an operable coded radar beacon transponder... (More content here has been omitted by wombat; important but not relevant to this conversation)

(1) All aircraft.  In Class A, Class B, and Class C airspace areas; 

(2) All aircraft.  In all airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part from the surface upward to 10,000 feet MSL;

(3) (Omitted by wombat; important but not relevant to this conversation)

(4) All aircraft in all airspace above the ceiling and within the lateral boundaries of a Class B or Class C airspace area designated for an airport upward to 10,000 feet MSL; and

(5) All aircraft except... (Omitted by wombat; important, but not relevant for this conversation)

(i) In all airspace of the 48 contiguous states and the District of Columbia at and above 10,000 feet MSL, excluding the airspace at and below 2,500 feet above the surface; and

(ii) In the airspace from the surface to 10,000 feet MSL within a 10-nautical-mile radius of any airport listed in appendix D, section 2 of this part, excluding the airspace below 1,200 feet outside of the lateral boundaries of the surface area of the airspace designated for that airport.

(c) Transponder-on operation.  Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, while in the airspace as specified in paragraph (b) of this section or in all controlled airspace, each person operating an aircraft equipped with an operable ATC transponder maintained in accordance with § 91.413 shall operate the transponder, including Mode C equipment if installed, and shall reply on the appropriate code or as assigned by ATC, unless otherwise directed by ATC when transmitting would jeopardize the safe execution of air traffic control functions. 

(d) ATC authorized deviations.  Requests for ATC authorized deviations must be made to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the concerned airspace within the time periods specified as follows: 

(1) For operation of an aircraft with an operating transponder but without operating automatic pressure altitude reporting equipment having a Mode C capability, the request may be made at any time. 

(2) For operation of an aircraft with an inoperative transponder to the airport of ultimate destination, including any intermediate stops, or to proceed to a place where suitable repairs can be made or both, the request may be made at any time. 

(3) For operation of an aircraft that is not equipped with a transponder, the request must be made at least one hour before the proposed operation.

 

§ 91.411 Altimeter system and altitude reporting equipment tests and inspections.

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-91/subpart-E/section-91.411

(a) No person may operate an airplane, or helicopter, in controlled airspace under IFR unless -

(1) Within the preceding 24 calendar months, each static pressure system, each altimeter instrument, and each automatic pressure altitude reporting system has been tested and inspected and found to comply with appendices E and F of part 43 of this chapter;

[PT20J]

3 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I hate to be "that guy" but, what do the words of the regulations say?

A useful resource you might want to bookmark

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14

[Skyland]

At Livermore KLVK.  At their hanger or they make the rounds to Bay Area airports.

http://www.precisionstatic.com/PST-services.htm

[201Mooniac]

2 hours ago, M20 Ogler said:

Does anyone know who/where near Sacramento or East east bay area ti contact to get my plane pitot and transponder tested? 

Northcoast Services will come to your plane to do the test.  They typically do mine when it is at Top Gun for annual but have come to my hangar at RHV when needed.  I don't have the contact info with me right now but you can PM me or call Rachel at Top Gun and she can give you the contact info.

[philiplane]

3 hours ago, wombat said:

  Alternatively you can take your transponder (without the plane) to a shop and have them bench test it.  At that point you can use it like normal but the rest of your static pressure system still needs to be tested before flying IFR in controlled airspace. (You could fly IFR in uncontrolled airspace if you wanted. )

 

 

 

That's not how it works, since the transponder has to be tested in the plane for a correspondence check and power output through the antenna. A bench certification does not cover this. And now, ADS-B equipped planes must be tested for ADSB output, and the statement "ADSB compliant" added to the aircraft log entry.

[cliffy]

The above is correct

Check 91.413

[M20F]

I am just going to say the rules have been posted.  I am a fan of rules.  

That being said I don’t always drive 55, if you get what I mean. 

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, PT20J said:

A useful resource you might want to bookmark

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14

What makes you think that's hasn't been bookmarked for several decades?  

[PT20J]

20 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

What makes you think that's hasn't been bookmarked for several decades?  

Your question:

8 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I hate to be "that guy" but, what do the words of the regulations say?

Thought you were just asking where to find them.

[wombat]

@philiplane    Can you help me find the regulations that state that? The way I read the regulations I don't find anything requiring anything different from before.

Appendix F to Part 43 - ATC Transponder Tests and Inspections

From here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-43/appendix-Appendix F to Part 43

The ATC transponder tests required by § 91.413 of this chapter may be conducted using a bench check... (Loads of other important information not necessary for this discussion omitted by wombat)

Chapter 3, Paragraph 2 C of FAA order 8200.45 

From here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/order/8200_45_ADS-B.pdf

Dedicated periodic flight inspections of ADS-B are not required.

 

The closest thing I could find is that if you are performing a 91.411 test and have an altitude encoder interfaced to your transponder, the correlation must be checked with your altimeter at the same time  in accordance with FAR 43 Appendix E Part c.   But for this part of the conversation, I was referring to a 91.413 check, which was maybe not clear.

From here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-43/appendix-Appendix E to Part 43

Each person performing the altimeter system tests and inspections required by § 91.411 of this chapter must... (The rest of the appendix omitted, by wombat)

[1980Mooney]

3 hours ago, M20F said:

I am just going to say the rules have been posted.  I am a fan of rules.  

That being said I don’t always drive 55, if you get what I mean. 

I wonder what percentage of IFR flights by GA aircraft are made every day with expired Pitot/Static Transponder ADSB certification - either knowingly or unknowingly because they haven't reviewed their maintenance logs?  I bet it is more than 5% - maybe my estimate is low.

And I wonder what percentage of VFR only pilots that own planes never think much about the 24 month transponder certification.  I would be willing to bet that lots of those planes go 3-4-5 years without a Pitot/Static certification.  And I bet that they fly into Class B and Class C airspace with high frequency.

Like much of aviation these endless rules only serve to keep the honest (and the knowing), honest.

Edited March 18, 2023 by 1980Mooney
Changed VFR "Pitot/Static" to "Transponder"

[M20 Ogler]

The only reason I worry about dotting my Ts and crossing my eyes with inspections and certifications is insurance companies. If something happens I don’t want to give them any excuse 

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

Your question:

Thought you were just asking where to find them.

I was just suggesting that reading is fundamental and regulation-wise, beats paraphrasing.

[MikeOH]

@M20 Ogler

I've often wondered about that...it would seem that a justified denial of claim would have to based on the violation being related to the cause.  In this case, you fly into a mountain because your altimeter is off due to lack of being in current calibration.

Additionally, don't we carry insurance to cover our mistakes?  Which would include inadvertent violations of the FARs.  Otherwise, insurance companies would be able to deny pretty much every claim as nearly every accident comes down to the pilot violating some rule!  Take a gear up for example; it would be pretty easy to argue 91.13 Careless and reckless .... sorry, we deny your claim!

[wombat]

@1980Mooney Is there a VFR pitot-static certification?    91.411 is specific to IFR.    91.413 is transponder only.

[1980Mooney]

1 hour ago, wombat said:

@1980Mooney Is there a VFR pitot-static certification?    91.411 is specific to IFR.    91.413 is transponder only.

Good point.  I corrected my post and changed that VFR statement to "Transponder".  My point is that it is done by avionics shop usually separate from the A&E Annual.  Even if the Annual shop says "you need a transponder Certification" the owner may forget to follow up.  Or the A&E shop may not highlight it.  A VFR only pilot usually is not going to spend as much money and time with his avionics shop - probably only when something critical fails - and therefore there may not be as many checks and balances reminding the owner as much about the transponder certification expiration.  

[EricJ]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

@1980Mooney Is there a VFR pitot-static certification?    91.411 is specific to IFR.    91.413 is transponder only.

There are leak checks described in maintenance ACs (e.g., 43.13) for pitot and static system that should be performed if the system has been opened for maintenance (e.g., a hose or instrument replaced).   There is no time limit specified, just whenever the system is opened.   These aren't regulations, either, just ACs.

Also, FWIW, the FAA seems to care far more about static systems for altitude reporting than pitot systems for airspeed.   You can work around a failed ASI, but if the altimeter lies to you it can cause a lot more trouble and you may not get any indication that it's wrong.

[PT20J]

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

I was just suggesting that reading is fundamental and regulation-wise, beats paraphrasing.

Ah, now I see your point 

[philiplane]

5 hours ago, wombat said:

@philiplane    Can you help me find the regulations that state that? The way I read the regulations I don't find anything requiring anything different from before.

Appendix F to Part 43 - ATC Transponder Tests and Inspections

From here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-43/appendix-Appendix F to Part 43

The ATC transponder tests required by § 91.413 of this chapter may be conducted using a bench check... (Loads of other important information not necessary for this discussion omitted by wombat)

Chapter 3, Paragraph 2 C of FAA order 8200.45 

From here: https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/order/8200_45_ADS-B.pdf

Dedicated periodic flight inspections of ADS-B are not required.

 

The closest thing I could find is that if you are performing a 91.411 test and have an altitude encoder interfaced to your transponder, the correlation must be checked with your altimeter at the same time  in accordance with FAR 43 Appendix E Part c.   But for this part of the conversation, I was referring to a 91.413 check, which was maybe not clear.

From here: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-43/appendix-Appendix E to Part 43

Each person performing the altimeter system tests and inspections required by § 91.411 of this chapter must... (The rest of the appendix omitted, by wombat)

!- You bench check the transponder, and then install it in a plane with an antenna broken off during this morning's wash job. What is the radiated power going to register?

2- You bench check a KT76A transponder, and put it in a plane with a Tail Beacon. How do you confirm the ADS-B output without testing it in the plane?  91.217 states that an ADS-B UAT must receive the same altitude reporting as the transponder. So, the same encoding altimeter, blind altitude encoder or air data computer must be interfaced with the transponder and a UAT ADS-B Out unit.

3-You can bench check a Garmin GTX335/345 transponder, but the configuration module stays in the plane's transponder tray backplate. So you cannot check Mode S address, or ADSB lat/long output without GPS signal.

Having operated three Part 145 Avionics shops, my FAA-issued Op Specs paperwork would never allow me to make an airframe log entry for a bench tested transponder. I could generate an 8130 though. But that does not satisfy the aircraft's requirements.

And finally, this is where you have to test it in the airplane:

91.413.b: Following any installation or maintenance on an ATC transponder where data correspondence error could be introduced, the integrated system has been tested, inspected, and found to comply with paragraph (c), appendix E, of part 43 of this chapter.

Data correspondence errors can occur in the aircraft installation!

Edited March 19, 2023 by philiplane