Time Building Offer in Eastern NC

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

If it is a multi crew aircraft, the Captain can log PIC time while sleeping. 

So pilot flying under the hood.  Safety Pilot.  CFI instruction and Captain (PIC).

I thought of that one and rejected it under the "Can we come up with a scenario where we really think the FAA will say, "yeah, that'll work." standard. But I suspect it doesn't work anyway. Just off the top of my head, your safety pilot can't log PIC. And Williams said no to the CFI sitting in the back.

[Pinecone]

A tri control aircraft??? ;D

This was something discussed many years ago, before the FAA said the instructor had to be at a control station.   I know the USAF and I think the USN also does, put two students in the front two seats and the instructor in the jumpseat.  But they fly under different rules, but I bet most of them log that time for airline jobs. 

The question that I don't know, is, if you have a 3 crew A/C, when the captain is in the back sleeping, he can still log PIC, but is one of the two upfront also PIC?  I know that at least some airlines have "Cruise Captain" positions.

[Fly Boomer]

On 2/12/2023 at 1:49 PM, Pinecone said:

the Captain can log PIC time while sleeping. 

John Deakin said a significant number of his 747 hours were accumulated sleeping on long flights.  I was amazed that it's allowed.

[jetdriven]

PIC is listed on the flight plan.

[midlifeflyer]

20 hours ago, Pinecone said:

A tri control aircraft??? ;D

This was something discussed many years ago, before the FAA said the instructor had to be at a control station.   I know the USAF and I think the USN also does, put two students in the front two seats and the instructor in the jumpseat.  But they fly under different rules, but I bet most of them log that time for airline jobs. 

The question that I don't know, is, if you have a 3 crew A/C, when the captain is in the back sleeping, he can still log PIC, but is one of the two upfront also PIC?  I know that at least some airlines have "Cruise Captain" positions.

LOL! Yes I am sure there has been lots of speculation  on a variety of  scenarios on a slew of regulatory topics before the FAA gave an answer. But once the answer is given, I think that branch of  speculation is at an end, flat earthers notwithstanding  

The augmented crew? Maybe. I don't think the logging of augmented flight crews has ever been officially addressed (maybe at that stage nobody really cares). The trouble I have with the scenario is, the definition of pilot in command is singular - the "person who... Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight."  I don't see a situation in which more than one person can meet that definition at the same time. Legally or practically. Of course, I could be wrong. 

The augmented crew situation is one that generally involves regulatory rest periods, and the "cruise captain" needs to be fully PIC qualified (with an exception for takeoff and landing currency). I can see the situation as either (a) PIC responsibility is transferred to the cruise captain, in which case the original captain is no,longer in command or (b) the original captain is still acting as PIC and the cruise captain not.

[Pinecone]

The thing that trips up these discussions is the difference in the regs between BEING PIC and LOGGING PIC. 

[PilotX]

On 2/3/2023 at 7:27 AM, eman1200 said:

so you want someone else to pay you money so you fly your plane and build hours......?

I see this posted sometimes in a local facebook group and I never get it.  "I want to build hours and I want someone else to pay me for half of it".  do people actually log time sitting right seat doing nothing?  that's crazy.

good luck though.

Yes. People do that all the time. Flew with a number of people over the years that were willing to pay for half - whether it was a flight school plane, my own, or their own. 

[PilotX]

10 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

John Deakin said a significant number of his 747 hours were accumulated sleeping on long flights.  I was amazed that it's allowed.

Required crew members also log flight time, whether at the controls or not.

 

2 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

LOL! Yes I am sure there has been lots of speculation  on a variety of  scenarios on a slew of regulatory topics before the FAA gave an answer. But once the answer is given, I think that branch of  speculation is at an end, flat earthers notwithstanding  

The augmented crew? Maybe. I don't think the logging of augmented flight crews has ever been officially addressed (maybe at that stage nobody really cares). The trouble I have with the scenario is, the definition of pilot in command is singular - the "person who... Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight."  I don't see a situation in which more than one person can meet that definition at the same time. Legally or practically. Of course, I could be wrong. 

The augmented crew situation is one that generally involves regulatory rest periods, and the "cruise captain" needs to be fully PIC qualified (with an exception for takeoff and landing currency). I can see the situation as either (a) PIC responsibility is transferred to the cruise captain, in which case the original captain is no,longer in command or (b) the original captain is still acting as PIC and the cruise captain not.

Not everybody sitting the left seat is "PIC qualified" the captain is only allowed to sit in the seat for 8 hours, some of our flights are 11 hours long. 

If you dig deep enough there is plenty of discussion related to required crew members, augmented crew, etc - if three are required, they are required. One logs PIC the others log SIC.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, PilotX said:

If you dig deep enough there is plenty of discussion related to required crew members, augmented crew, etc - if three are required, they are required. One logs PIC the others log SIC.

I agree.  Definitely. This thread withing the discussion was about multiple pilots logging PIC, not some other kind of FAA or company-specific flight time.

And yes, I've seen "plenty of discussion." I don't consider that "officially addressed."

[midlifeflyer]

59 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

The thing that trips up these discussions is the difference in the regs between BEING PIC and LOGGING PIC. 

Absolutely - I keep that in mind all the time.  I'd better since I write articles on the subject  

It's equally important to read what the rules say (and how the FAA has applied them) and not what we think they say. That trips up just as many discussions.

 

[RobertGary1]

On 2/3/2023 at 6:27 AM, eman1200 said:

so you want someone else to pay you money so you fly your plane and build hours......?

I see this posted sometimes in a local facebook group and I never get it.  "I want to build hours and I want someone else to pay me for half of it".  do people actually log time sitting right seat doing nothing?  that's crazy.

good luck though.

They both log pic time at half cost. 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, PilotX said:

Required crew members also log flight time, whether at the controls or not.

 

Not everybody sitting the left seat is "PIC qualified" the captain is only allowed to sit in the seat for 8 hours, some of our flights are 11 hours long. 

If you dig deep enough there is plenty of discussion related to required crew members, augmented crew, etc - if three are required, they are required. One logs PIC the others log SIC.

Are you mixing up being pic with logging pic? You don’t log pic because you’re pilot in command. 61.51e is what scenarios you log pic. Not related to pilot in command. 

[Pinecone]

5 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Are you mixing up being pic with logging pic? You don’t log pic because you’re pilot in command. 61.51e is what scenarios you log pic. Not related to pilot in command. 

Except (e)(1)(iii) - When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted

[midlifeflyer]

41 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Except (e)(1)(iii) - When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted

That's the key. Acting PIC does not equal logging PIC unless something in 61.51 says you need to be acting as PIC.

[jetdriven]

I had a buddy I was flying with to get his commercial license, and I noticed he logged 6 hours of Baron 58P time as PIC, but he doesnt  have a multi rating. When I asked about it the story comes out, the owner and his buddy wanted him to fly them down to Dallas to go to the strip clubs late at night, then they flew back bit the owner was totally wasted. So by his reckoning, he was PIC because the owner was completely wasted and the person in the backseat wasn't even a pilot at all and I was like Dave it doesn't work that way. 
 

Later he called and said he picked up a ton of ice in his glasair, and then it handled it great it was no problem. And when I asked what he was doing flying around i  icing conditions he said hauling freight. Leave it to say I didn't fly with him but after that

[PilotX]

12 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

Are you mixing up being pic with logging pic? You don’t log pic because you’re pilot in command. 61.51e is what scenarios you log pic. Not related to pilot in command. 

I'm not mixing anything. I have two PIC types, one in the left seat for one plane and one in the right seat for another plane. I never log PIC, even though I am acting PIC in the left seat when the CA takes a nap. It is a fun discussion nonetheless.

[PilotX]

7 hours ago, Pinecone said:

Except (e)(1)(iii) - When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted

Wait I can't log PIC, without a sport pilot license? Noooooo.

 

[midlifeflyer]

8 hours ago, PilotX said:

Wait I can't log PIC, without a sport pilot license? Noooooo.

 

Who said? 

[Pinecone]

15 hours ago, midlifeflyer said:

That's the key. Acting PIC does not equal logging PIC unless something in 61.51 says you need to be acting as PIC.

Exactly.  There needs to be a requirement for more than one crew member.

Pilot flying under the hood triggers the requirement for a safety pilot.  But two pilots in a light single cannot both log.

And remember, when logging safety pilot time, you can only log the time that the pilot flying is under the hood (subtract take off and landing and such).  And, you cannot log XC.  There is an FAA interpretation around that only the pilot flying can log XC when you are under the hood.

[Pinecone]

12 hours ago, jetdriven said:

I had a buddy I was flying with to get his commercial license, and I noticed he logged 6 hours of Baron 58P time as PIC, but he doesnt  have a multi rating. When I asked about it the story comes out, the owner and his buddy wanted him to fly them down to Dallas to go to the strip clubs late at night, then they flew back bit the owner was totally wasted. So by his reckoning, he was PIC because the owner was completely wasted and the person in the backseat wasn't even a pilot at all and I was like Dave it doesn't work that way. 
 

Later he called and said he picked up a ton of ice in his glasair, and then it handled it great it was no problem. And when I asked what he was doing flying around i  icing conditions he said hauling freight. Leave it to say I didn't fly with him but after that

WTF?!  To BOTH

[Pinecone]

8 hours ago, PilotX said:

Wait I can't log PIC, with[s]out[/s] a sport pilot license? Noooooo.

 

FTFY.

You cannot log PIC as a required crewmember with a Sport Pilot Certificate.

You can log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls.

[midlifeflyer]

10 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Exactly.  There needs to be a requirement for more than one crew member.

Pilot flying under the hood triggers the requirement for a safety pilot.  But two pilots in a light single cannot both log.

And remember, when logging safety pilot time, you can only log the time that the pilot flying is under the hood (subtract take off and landing and such).  And, you cannot log XC.  There is an FAA interpretation around that only the pilot flying can log XC when you are under the hood.

I'll try to remember  .

Logging Vs Being PIC

(The FAA's limiting logging cross country to the pilot doing the entire flight, including takeoff and landing, goes beyond the safety pilot scenario.)

[PilotX]

14 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Exactly.  There needs to be a requirement for more than one crew member.

Pilot flying under the hood triggers the requirement for a safety pilot.  But two pilots in a light single cannot both log.

And remember, when logging safety pilot time, you can only log the time that the pilot flying is under the hood (subtract take off and landing and such).  And, you cannot log XC.  There is an FAA interpretation around that only the pilot flying can log XC when you are under the hood.

Also not true. I am a CFI. I can log without the left seater under foggles. 

[midlifeflyer]

Just now, PilotX said:

Also not true. I am a CFI. I can log without the left seater under foggles. 

To be fair, he said "two pilots." When you log as a CFI, it's based on your CFI certificate, not  any if your pilot certificates. 

[Pinecone]

Exactly.

A CFI instructing is another case.