FAA legal basis for A3B6D -> A3B6 conversion

[Martin S.]

Evening gents,

I'm considering a conversion of my EASA-reg M20J from A3B6D to A3B6. Seems like these conversions are rather normal under FAA skies. Turns out such a conversion has not yet been conducted under EASA. Trying to understand if this is possible under EASA as well. EASA cross-references to the FAA Mooney TCDS (2A3). 2A3 lists the engines "Textron-Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D or IO-360-A3B6D or IO-360-A3B6" as alternatives for the M20J, independently of any AC serial numbers. Is this the legal basis for the engine conversion under FAA? If not, what is the basis for the conversion?

Greets and many thanks,

 

Martin

[PT20J]

Mooney switched to the A3B6 during the final years of M20J production. Both engines are on the TCDS. Since there is no restriction on the serial number range, either engine may be used on any serial number. There are some parts differences such as the prop governor. The ICS has all the parts required for either installation.

[EricJ]

53 minutes ago, Martin S. said:

Evening gents,

I'm considering a conversion of my EASA-reg M20J from A3B6D to A3B6. Seems like these conversions are rather normal under FAA skies. Turns out such a conversion has not yet been conducted under EASA. Trying to understand if this is possible under EASA as well. EASA cross-references to the FAA Mooney TCDS (2A3). 2A3 lists the engines "Textron-Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D or IO-360-A3B6D or IO-360-A3B6" as alternatives for the M20J, independently of any AC serial numbers. Is this the legal basis for the engine conversion under FAA? If not, what is the basis for the conversion?

Greets and many thanks,

 

Martin

Basically, yes, since the engine is listed in the TCDS it can be installed without an STC or other authorization.

[Ibra]

Older Mooneys models don’t have “specific EASA TCDS”, they rely on “FAA TCDS” (2A3) for FAR23 certification “as it is” to make the basis of CS23 approval, any engine & propeller that is listed on FAA TCDS is fine to be replaced 

http://www.accelerationtech.com/photos/mooney/TypeCert/FAA-Type-Cert-Mooney-2A3.pdf

The new M20R/M20M are two bizarre exceptions on how they were treated from original TCDS and few STC (this was problematic with 310hp STC conversions under CAA/EASA regimes, it’s like the regulators across the pond know that these fast beasts will start flying into short runways between calm Swiss or British neighbours: so they pulled fresh EASA TCDS and added few additional noise certificates ) 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2023 by Ibra

[Martin S.]

Thanks everybody. It's basically what I thought - there's no mentioning of any serial number restriction. As such, any J could go with any engine (of the listed alternatives).

[Guest]

You might also argue that if you ordered an A3B6D from Lycoming, they would supply an A3B6, making the D model obsolete.

[jaylw314]

13 hours ago, Martin S. said:

Evening gents,

I'm considering a conversion of my EASA-reg M20J from A3B6D to A3B6. Seems like these conversions are rather normal under FAA skies. Turns out such a conversion has not yet been conducted under EASA. Trying to understand if this is possible under EASA as well. EASA cross-references to the FAA Mooney TCDS (2A3). 2A3 lists the engines "Textron-Lycoming IO-360-A1B6D or IO-360-A3B6D or IO-360-A3B6" as alternatives for the M20J, independently of any AC serial numbers. Is this the legal basis for the engine conversion under FAA? If not, what is the basis for the conversion?

Greets and many thanks,

 

Martin

Wait, are you talking about 'converting' by replacing the A3B6D with an A3B6, or 'converting' by modifying an A3B6D to an A3B6?

It's hard for me to imagine that NOBODY has ever put an A3B6 under EASA...

[Ibra]

I did quick check on CAA database, I found all M20J on G-reg have A3B6D rather than A3B6, I am not sure if it's data quality issue? or that no one ever went for dual mags/shafts?

I will query on French register

[Martin S.]

3 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

Wait, are you talking about 'converting' by replacing the A3B6D with an A3B6, or 'converting' by modifying an A3B6D to an A3B6?

It's hard for me to imagine that NOBODY has ever put an A3B6 under EASA...

Sorry for confusion. I mean replacing, not modifying engines.

 

[Martin S.]

FYI, I was in contact with a German MSC. No conversions so far. 

[Fly Boomer]

39 minutes ago, Ibra said:

I did quick check on CAA database, I found all M20J on G-reg have A3B6D rather than A3B6, I am not sure if it's data quality issue? or that no one ever went for dual mags/shafts?

I will query on French register

For what it is worth, FAA registration database is not always accurate regarding engine.  In my experience, that datum rarely is updated.

[OR75]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

You might also argue that if you ordered an A3B6D from Lycoming, they would supply an A3B6, making the D model obsolete.

I don’t think that’s the case. If you order a D , you should receive a D from the Lyc distributor 

they are not fully interchangeable (fluids hoses and governor are different) 

[A64Pilot]

I’ve worked with EASA in Certifications, used to be anything accepted by the FAA was accepted by EASA, but even five years ago when I retired that was no longer the case, even Canada now has some additional requirements, or did then anyway.

In the US pretty much whatever the engine manufacturers say, the FAA accepts

I’d advise before you spent any money you get something in writing from EASA, or stick with a (D) engine, let someone else go through that pain.

 

 

[Ibra]

4 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

For what it is worth, FAA registration database is not always accurate regarding engine

That was my thinking it's not granular or accurate, maybe just snapshot as of aircraft registration...

[PT20J]

On 1/9/2023 at 7:24 PM, M20Doc said:

You might also argue that if you ordered an A3B6D from Lycoming, they would supply an A3B6, making the D model obsolete.

Factory told me during my visit that they are still shipping dual mag engines. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, PT20J said:

Factory told me during my visit that they are still shipping dual mag engines. 

Things do change, some time ago I heard they were no longer supporting the D model, they must have reconsidered.

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Things do change, some time ago I heard they were no longer supporting the D model, they must have reconsidered.

I believe the problem was parts availability for overhauling the mags, especially the magnesium cases which tended to corrode, and now Kelly makes many of the parts including an aluminum case.