Transition from PA28/C172 to Mooney...

[Fix]

Hi all,

New member here,

I've been thinking of buying an own plane for over 5-7 years now.
Started as a silly idea, but the idea have now last 2 years gone to DO IT..

Roughly 225-250h in C172/PA82/DA20 with PPL, NQ
Middle of my IFR rating training, done with all theory where we fly an P28R-200.

Is it crazy to buy an Ovation 2 directly or should I settle for an M20J ?
I know the prices are more steep on O2 than J, but it's also a newer aircraft... And probably little more expensive to own.

The question, if we don't think about money for the moment,

Is an O2 too much to start with?
Can I handle it, or is it too fast?

Of course I will take proper training with my flight instructor, but still.

/Patrik

[Fly Boomer]

28 minutes ago, Fix said:

Is an O2 too much to start with?
Can I handle it, or is it too fast?

Short answer:  depends on you.  Long answer:  some here will tell you it's not possible; you need to buy and sell several airplanes over a period of years on your way to your objective.  Others will tell you it's possible, but may take more time.  I would strongly advise against the "how hard can it be?" philosophy or the "kick the tires and light the fires" mentality.  The Ovation is heavier, complex, more powerful, and (therefore) faster.  The trick is to get on top of all those things without physical or financial injury.  Abbreviated version of the long answer:  Of course you can with sufficient instruction and experience.

[WaynePierce]

It depends on your mission. I went from a 1/4 share in a 180C to a Mooney J, I was right at 300 hours. The J is perfect for me. I've on Basic Med so I don't care that my J wont fly in the FL's, I can't. My mission is my wife and a German Shepherd to either the Panhandle of Florida (for family) or the middle of North Carolina (for Grandkids) from Memphis. The only thing I've found more difficult in the Mooney than the Piper is building time. I just get there too fast... I'm currently working on my IR and the J is perfect for this as well. This is my last airplane I will ever own, that's something else for you to think about, and why my decision was much easier.

 

I forgot.... Welcome.

[TNIndy]

Buy the plane that fits your mission then put in the time needed with a good instructor. The big difference is that everything happens faster and it takes practice to stay in front of things

[donkaye]

34 minutes ago, TNIndy said:

.......put in the time needed with a good instructor. The big difference is that everything happens faster and it takes practice to stay in front of things

The truth is that everything happens faster---if you let it.   It doesn't have to be.  The dynamic range of the Ovation is very large.  The stall speed is 59 knots at gross weight fully configured for landing; less at lighter weights.  I've trained people in it right out of the C152.  You can fly it as slow as a C172 until you get comfortable with it.

[cwaters]

2 hours ago, Fix said:

Hi all,

New member here,

I've been thinking of buying an own plane for over 5-7 years now.
Started as a silly idea, but the idea have now last 2 years gone to DO IT..

Roughly 225-250h in C172/PA82/DA20 with PPL, NQ
Middle of my IFR rating training, done with all theory where we fly an P28R-200.

Is it crazy to buy an Ovation 2 directly or should I settle for an M20J ?
I know the prices are more steep on O2 than J, but it's also a newer aircraft... And probably little more expensive to own.

The question, if we don't think about money for the moment,

Is an O2 too much to start with?
Can I handle it, or is it too fast?

Of course I will take proper training with my flight instructor, but still.

/Patrik

something not here is what is your mission? The O2 and the J are two different planes with different best missions. you can get some really really nice J's out there so I don't know that its fair to say the O2 is a nicer plane. 

 

define the mission and get the plane that fits that mission. If that end up being the O2 then great, find a highly experienced CFI with O time to work with you to get in front of the plane and manage the systems properly. Don't do just the insurance minimum but spend some good time getting comfortable in the plane so you reduce the risks of getting behind and forgetting things. I got my J with about 100 TT in 172 and the like and then got my IFR in it and wouldn't have done it any different. I felt it was a big step from the 172 to the J but spent a good bit of time with a CFI to build confidence and comfort before turning loose to explore the world in style. 

[icurnmedic]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

The truth is that everything happens faster---if you let it.   It doesn't have to be.  The dynamic range of the Ovation is very large.  The stall speed is 59 knots at gross weight fully configured for landing; less at lighter weights.  I've trained people in it right out of the C152.  You can fly it as slow as a C172 until you get comfortable with it.

I was 120 hrs in a C172 , to the Mooney, Now almost 300 hours, Still learning but it is worth it. And I recommend Dons video on landing as well!! Thomas

[Fix]

My mission…

I live in Europe, South Sweden.

it’s everything from short round trips for an hour around the field to longer trips in Sweden and when feeling more confident trips to Western Europe.

We have an apartment in Cannes/France and hopefully someday doing 3-4 trips each year over the alps if possible.

Since I’m hopefully done with my IFR rating later this year I would like to have an good IFR platform too.

Sadly in Europe it’s harder to find nice Mooneys, and even harder is to find an 96-98 M20J. The price for an Ovation 2 is more or less similar. And now I found an nice O2 with ok instrumentation and we’ll taken care of. Non FIKI.

One thing concerns me about an O2 is how long start/landings I need. Would be nice to sometimes manage to land on shorter airfields.

 

Edited July 14, 2022 by Fix

[Danb]

Fix, I assume the flight over the Alps requires being in the flight levels, if so your mission is leaning towards an Acclaim or Bravo with FIKI 

[donkaye]

28 minutes ago, Fix said:

My mission…

I live in Europe, South Sweden.

it’s everything from short round trips for an hour around the field to longer trips in Sweden and when feeling more confident trips to Western Europe.

We have an apartment in Cannes/France and hopefully someday doing 3-4 trips each year over the alps if possible.

Since I’m hopefully done with my IFR rating later this year I would like to have an good IFR platform too.

Sadly in Europe it’s harder to find nice Mooneys, and even harder is to find an 96-98 M20J. The price for an Ovation 2 is more or less similar. And now I found an nice O2 with ok instrumentation and we’ll taken care of. Non FIKI.

One thing concerns me about an O2 is how long start/landings I need. Would be nice to sometimes manage to land on shorter airfields.

 

The Ovation is not the Airplane to be flying over the Alps.  You want a turbocharged airplane for that.  The Ovation can comfortably land on runways as short as 2,300 feet,  but you need to fly it right.

SPEEDS, CHECK LISTS M20R .pdf

[Mooneymite]

>>>Is an O2 too much to start with?<<<

Lots of threads on Mooneyspace about the appropriate "step up" to some version of the M-20C.

It is not a matter of the airplane you step up to.  It is a matter of the training.

The armed forces had good results with starting pilots in planes that far surpassed anything Mooney ever produced, but the training was intense and appropriate.

A thousand hours of poor training will prepare you only to be a poor pilot in whatever aircraft you choose.

[Danb]

37 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The Ovation is not the Airplane to be flying over the Alps.  You want a turbocharged airplane for that.  The Ovation can comfortably land on runways as short as 2,300 feet,  but you need to fly it right.

SPEEDS, CHECK LISTS M20R .pdf 113.94 kB · 4 downloads

That’s a great clear checklist Don would you share your Bravo one

 

DB

[donkaye]

4 hours ago, Danb said:

That’s a great clear checklist Don would you share your Bravo one

 

DB

Here it is.

 

SPEEDS & CHECK LISTS M20M.pdf

[Fix]

@donkaye
Do you mind sharing check list if you one on M20J.

The one on M20R has lots of good information.

 

 

[Fix]

When I checked with ForeFlight, Alps was around 12000ft, and passing at >16000ft with an Ovation is not recommended?

I always have the alternate route around alps via France, so it's not that big problem. But it would be nice to cut travel time when and if I do those trips.

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, Fix said:

When I checked with ForeFlight, Alps was around 12000ft, and passing at >16000ft with an Ovation is not recommended?

I always have the alternate route around alps via France, so it's not that big problem. But it would be nice to cut travel time when and if I do those trips.

I've flown the Ovation all over the US many times.  It's best altitude to fly is 9.500 feet.  I've gotten it up to the 15,000 foot MEA to go over the Rocky's before.  The climb rate becomes anemic above 12,000.  At that altitude you have lost 12" of manifold pressure.  3" MP is approximately 10% of power, so you have lost 40% of your power.  There is very little cushion for downdrafts.  So, yes, you can get up to 15,000, but it will be slow going above 12,000, with little or no options with any kind of downdrafts.

Example:  Early in the Ovation's life there was an issue with the exhaust that Mooney required be fixed in Kerrville.  I ferried a lot of Ovations to Kerrville.  On one return trip to San Jose there was building weather in the San Joaquin Valley.  I first thought I could climb above it.  There was no way.  I had to divert to San Diego where I did the ILS into Montgomery in the hardest rain I've ever flown in my over 12,000 hours to date.  I had to stay in the plane for 10 minutes after I landed until the rain let up a little.  The weather up North didn't break for 4 days.  (We could sure use some of that now).

[donkaye]

5 hours ago, Fix said:

@donkaye
Do you mind sharing check list if you one on M20J.

The one on M20R has lots of good information.

 

 

Here's the J.

SPEEDS, CHECK LIST M20J.pdf

[Robert C.]

Hi Fix,

i had about 150hrs in Piper Archers when I bought my Ovation 3. I combined transition training with my IR using an accelerated program. Did 40hrs of IR training in 10 days and passed my check ride and felt completely comfortable in the Ovation. I did discover afterwards that there was much more to learn about Ovations and flying, but felt that by being careful/conservative it was perfectly doable to start flying an Ovation after 150 hrs in simpler planes.

good luck!

Robert

[carusoam]

Great questions Patrick!

1) Select the right Mooney… engine….  Turbo vs. Normally Aspirated…

2) Select the right size… airframe… mid body vs. Long Body…

3) Climbing over tall rocks… turbos make great power sources at tall altitudes….

 

If for some reason… a Normally aspirated engine and Ovation makes the cut….

Know that the Ovation has a few engine variations to select from… the most powerful being 310hp…

 

This engine is the next best thing to the Turbo normalized IO550 that the Acclaim has…

Selecting a good transition trainer makes a great next step…

The high end Mooneys come with many systems to get to know….

See the input from Don Kaye above… he is one of the best Mooney Transition Trainers… and flys a Bravo with a super modern instrument panel….

Transition Training in your Mooney is a blast!

Go Mooney!

Best regards,

-a-

[MatthiasArnold]

Hi Fix,

My 2 cents with some bias due to the fact that I'm a proud O2 GX2 owner.

• I had exactly 200hours (including) the PPL-A/VFR training when I purchased my O2 (app 30hours in M20J).
• Transitioning training with a Mooney experienced FI is a must
• Before purchasing the O2 I flew PA28, DA20, DA40, C172, M20J in a kind of round robin scheme
  • The idea was to get a good understanding of the different characters and characteristics of the planes (guess which plane was most fascinating to me..)
  • An experienced aviator friend helped to shape my mission profile
• My mission profile is similar to yours
  • Some 1 - 2 hour flights around Germany/Netherlands/Belgium
  • Several flights from Germany over the Alps to (northern) Italy per year (app. 5 forth and back during the last 9 months)
  • Currently I'm in "famous" LOWI / Innsbruck - hitting back to EDKA tomorrow.
• I made my IR rating on my O2 last year - to me it feels like a perfect IR platform (much more stable than e.g., a C172 (which I had to utilize for the last 10+hours of IR training in the ATO due to German/EASA laws))
• Don (of course) is right - climb performance goes down to 250fpm or so at 12k+
  • However, one of my last trips (EDKA to LIPV) was at F150 (the DA was 16k+)
  • The typical crossing altitude via the Gotthard route is F140
  • If the wind is blowing perpendicular over the main ridges at 40Kts+ (typical Föhn conditions), mountain waves including downdrafts can be a factor. Of course you have to monitor your IAS and probably disengage the A/P plus ask ATC for a block altitude. The max headwind during my App crossing flights yet was app. 50Kts.
  • If your heading towards Cote d'Azur you always have the possibility to void the Alps and go along the Rhone valley (unless the Mistral is blowing hard)
  • Per my (limited) experience, the IR flight plans which are accepted by Eurocontrol always allow for more than sufficient distance to climb to the required altitude.
  • On days with nice weather you can crosse the Alps at 8000ft or lower (Gotthard route, Brenner route, ..) - in VFR conditions, of course. I never did this, but e.g. @Graf_Aviator has a track record on VFR Alp crossing with O2 and other aircraft.
• During my last northbound flight over the Alps FIKI was a great option (although I the freezing happened over German terrain and I could go lower to non freezing levels at any time)

To keep a long story short

• Turbo powered birds provide more options (as laid out by Don)
• My O2 (with FIKI and built in oxygen) works for me (to be more precise - its a great machine!)
• For your mission you have options (like cruising along the Rhone valley) - and you should always have options..
• Considering European AVGAS prices (which are even higher than in the US ) and Mooney efficiency:
  • Typical fuel consumption on my trips  is around 11.5gals/h
  • One time I made it forth and back to northern Italy with still 1.5hours reserve left

If you have further questions don't hesitate to PM (or put them into this thread).

Best,

Matthias

Eastern Monday 2022 abeam Luzern/Vierwaldstädter See approaching Gotthard in F140

 

[carusoam]

Best pic of the day Matthias!

Best regards,

-a-

[FlyingDude]

Welcome to the family.

On 7/14/2022 at 6:25 PM, Fix said:

Since I’m hopefully done with my IFR rating later this year

Get your IR stat.  Mooneys are performing aircraft, so you'll find yourself needing IR...  I had 10, 15, 25 hr round trips of which sometimes the first half hour or the first hour and one time the 3 hrs were in IMC;  or the departure was through low ceilings only to find clear skies at 3000'.  You'd either miss on good opportunities or push yourself into trouble.  

You can cross the Alps without having to cross over the peaks.  Lots of E-W valleys.  You can shoot straight down to Innsbruck, Austria and then follow the valley to Como, Italy and then hit south over Genoa, Italy and go west along the coast.  Or shoot direct to Tolouse and then cross the Pyrennes.  

Good luck, safe flights and have fun

[GMBrown]

Donkaye: I dont suppose you have the Speeds, Checklist for the K (231) too?  You had to see this request coming.

[donkaye]

59 minutes ago, GMBrown said:

Donkaye: I dont suppose you have the Speeds, Checklist for the K (231) too?  You had to see this request coming.

The K Model

SPEEDS, CHECK LIST M20K.pdf

[Pinecone]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

The K Model

 

Do you have one for the Encore?

I have a 252 upgraded to Encore spec.