Starter Issue - Battery, Starter, or Starter Solenoid ... My experience

[Guest]

My airplane is a 1983 Mooney M20K

I am new to the Mooney world, having purchase my Mooney in January 2021.  The timing of my starter issue was fortunate because the issue was resolved prior departing April 30 for a two-week adventure flying from Huntsville AL to St. George UT to Chino CA to Phoenix AZ and return.  I am not sure there are anything useful in this note, but perhaps there is some entertainment value.

On April 23rd I did my runup prior to a flight departing KHSV in Huntsville, AL for KDTS for a $100 amber jack fish fillet sandwich at the Back Porch restaurant in Destin Florida. I had difficulty starting, at first suspecting the new Concord RG-35AXC battery I had recently installed. I was unable to start on battery power but was able to start with external power from a DB Assembly R-14/28-25 APU power supply purchased from Aircraft Spruce and Specialty Co. Bringing my APU with me, I changed my destination to BGF in Winchester TN to the repair station.  We tried the old battery, which had a cell going bad, but which had not yet failed, and had no joy.  We decided the starter was going bad.  We ordered a Hartzell ES646238-2 and I was going to return to HSV and wait for the part.  I was not able to start the engine, even with the APU.  So, I left the airplane at KBFG and got a ride from friend. 

The replacement starter arrived and during removal of the old starter, the vacuum pump had to be removed because it was in the way.  Since I no longer have vacuum instruments (Twin Aspens and a Garmin G5 were installed prior to my purchase), I opted to remove the vacuum pump and associated valves and hoses.  Then we ordered a plate to cover the vacuum pump engine port.  Fortunately, the cover plate was available, was installed and the starter was replaced.  I returned to retrieve the airplane.  The engine at first appeared to start OK.  I paid the bill and then when I started up to go home, it was a very sluggish start.  We decided the starter solenoid was intermittent. Possibly the high currents from the failing starter had damaged the solenoid.  In any case, I left the plane again and had the starter solenoid SAZ-4201E replaced. 

Now the engine starts right up.  On April 30 I departed Huntsville for Saint George Utah and my flying adventure began.  I had no starter issues, though I learned a bit about flying in the high plateaus and mountains of the west. Landing in Winslow AZ was interesting with winds 280 @ 32G44.  Landing on Runway 29, … but I digress. 

[A64Pilot]

Everybody needs to go to Winslow Arizona, if nothing else to stand on the corner. The name didn’t sink in until after I was there.

Did you fly around the Crater?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, A64Pilot said:

Everybody needs to go to Winslow Arizona, if nothing else to stand on the corner. The name didn’t sink in until after I was there.

Did you fly around the Crater?

I stopped at the Dairy Queen once there and no lie I saw Flatbed Ford go by.

[carusoam]

Great pirep for starter relay issues…

There are a few reported around here.  They are tricky to diagnose…

Their failure is typically not closing completely…

The relay closes, some electricity flows through, but not the resistance free amount of amperage….

 

Any idea how many installed hours were on the relay…?

Best regards,

-a-

[steingar]

I had a non starting engine last summer.  Four different trips into the shop, with the mechanics claiming it was fixed when it wasn't.  A month of down time.  Yup, a new starter, new this and that.  I think it wound up being the ignition.

What really got me was four trips into the shop.  I think there are only four components between the starter and the battery.

[N201MKTurbo]

There is no need to change a bunch of parts. These problems can easily be trouble shot with a hand held meter. I wish more mechanics knew how...

[Guest]

Sky Tec has some simple troubleshooting guidance.

Clarence

[N201MKTurbo]

8 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

Sky Tec has some simple troubleshooting guidance.

Clarence

The one thing I would add is a voltage drop test from the starter body to the negative post of the battery. This will identify any poor grounds in the airframe. They can cause as much trouble as the power side.

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The one thing I would add is a voltage drop test from the starter body to the negative post of the battery. This will identify any poor grounds in the airframe. They can cause as much trouble as the power side.

I’d say more. I used to maintain a bunch of electronic aircraft, and as often as not it was grounds but the ground were the toughest sometimes to find, because the circuit would often find an alternate ground, but it was often high resistance and intermittent.

Remember the Chrysler K car? A bunch of them were eating up CV joints and Chrysler couldn’t figure out why, they eventually traced it to all the CV joint eaters were made on the same shift. Ended up the person doing the assembly wasn’t torquing the engine to frame ground and when the car was started it found a ground through the driveshaft and was arcing the CV joint, but the CV joint in tearing itself up erased the arc damage so the cause of the failure was hidden.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

The one thing I would add is a voltage drop test from the starter body to the negative post of the battery. This will identify any poor grounds in the airframe. They can cause as much trouble as the power side.

We’re working on a Cessna 185 that was suffering from poor cranking speed.  Turns out that when the engine mount was replaced they forgot to reinstall the engine ground cables.  A pair of new ones has corrected the starting issues.  The ground half of the circuit is often overlooked.

Clarence

[carusoam]

We have often discussed…

broken or missing or dirty ground straps…

From engine to airframe to instrument panel….

Oddly, not everyone is familiar with their importance….

Best regards,

-a-

[GeeBee]

The sign at the self serve fuel pump at Winslow is the best laugh for me. I guess a flew city slickers have been bit.

 

[David M20J]

6 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

The sign at the self serve fuel pump at Winslow is the best laugh for me. I guess a flew city slickers have been bit.

 

That's where I am based out of for work, just flew a rattlesnake bite just north of there

Edited June 1, 2022 by David M20J

[M20F]

The first thing I would recommend in general is cleaning connections and then using copious amounts of dylectic grease.  
 
Corroded connections abound on 40+ year old planes and can cause all kinds of issues. 
 

[EricJ]

14 hours ago, David M20J said:

That's where I am based out of for work, just flew a rattlesnake bite just north of there

I go up there to do the GPS approach occassionally and I often hear the helicopter traffic.    Might have heard you!

 

[Guest]

21 hours ago, David M20J said:

That's where I am based out of for work, just flew a rattlesnake bite just north of there

Do the rattlesnakes enjoy the helicopter ride?  How do you keep the seat belts on them?

Clarence

[A64Pilot]

I hate snakes, killed a two foot coral snake yesterday

[steingar]

14 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I hate snakes, killed a two foot coral snake yesterday

It's their world, we just live in it.

[N201MKTurbo]

When I was a kid I worked for Maricopa County maintaining their microwave system. I spent all day four wheeling up mountains. In the spring and fall I would see rattle snakes every day. I would mess with them sometimes. I never met one who wanted to attack you. As you approach them, they will try to crawl away. If you approach faster than they can get away, they will coil and rattle. This is telling you to get away. If you still mess with them, they will strike. They can strike about a foot in distance. 
 

I have even stepped on them accidentally. They will coil and rattle before they strike.

Anybody who gets bitten by them was messing with them. If you just walk away when you hear it rattle, you will both be fine.

[PaulM]

Another thing that can fail on Lycomings (so you should check it) is there is a jumper from the main 24V pad to the solenoid that is internal to the starter.   

If that fails, the main firewall solenoid will click.. you will have voltage everywhere in the circuit but the starter won't spin.    These starters are re-purposed car design  starters, so the main lug was designed to be connected to 24V all of the time, and then the start signal just sent to the solenoid in the starter.   Airplane applications don't' want a hot, high current 24V line going past the engine and all of those fuel lines 24x7, so the solenoid is on the firewall, and the line to the starter is only under voltage during the start, and they use that little jumper to also activate the starter solenoid at the same time.  

I was AOG after a fuel stop for a couple of hours.. Luckily there was a mechanic that came (and it wasn't the weekend) Was it battery, is the main solenoid ok?.. we have good voltage at the starter, oh it fired... must have been a dead spot (no, we had just pushed the wire a bit)  at that time we didn't really understand that you need to check both terminals are getting 24V.   and for the DIY people, the nuts on that starter are metric, and not a size that is close enough for US wrenches to work.