consequences of retracting flaps on roll out!

[Ron McBride]

Does the shop that moved the plane and dropped it not once, but TWICE have liability for poor work? This is poor work on there part.

 It was not an emergency to move the plane, it was just necessary to move it.

Ron

[Shadrach]

Quote: N601RX

On what are you basing that number??? How much do you think sheetmetal costs? I had a wing tip rebuilt in 09 for 3K. All new sheet metal from the last rivit seam out and new paint. 

[xftrplt]

Quote: Hank

 True, the flap switch was not touched. Moving the flap switch was his intention, but he hit the gear instead . . . . . .

Makes me not feel bad about sometimes forgetting to raise the flaps until I'm stopped on the ramp.

[Shadrach]

Quote: xftrplt

Good point, Shadrach.

It ain't about flaps. 

The title could as easily have been:  Consequences of Turning Off Landing Light..., etc.

In my opinion, without getting the wisdom of moving the flaps just after touchdown, it's about flipping switches quickly when there is no urgency, especially when new in the plane.

[Hank]

Quote: Shadrach

If I was in a J (or just about anything else), I'd reassess the risk...

[201er]

Quote: Hank

Please feel free to reassess the risk, I'd be interested to hear it. Confusing the two is low on my list of in-flight worries, as it is on yours.

[John Pleisse]

Quote: bdjohn4

Barons are the worst at this. Gear and flaps are on either side of the quadrant, and to make things worse, Beechcraft flip-flopped the positions of these switches after several years. Had a close call once while attempting to retract the Baron's flaps on roll-out, so I learned my lesson and keep the flaps down unless absolutely necessary (due to wind or short-field or whatever). John

[gregwatts]

Quote: 201er

Well I think the entire point of this topic is that the OP proved this otherwise....

[Hank]

I realize that, Greg. But I was trying to make a point--Ross insists that the physical separation, different appearance and motions of his manual gear and hydraulic flaps make it less likely to cross-wire his head and get backwards, but that our electric planes can be more easily confused.

My favorite saying, taped to my monitor when I wrote product specifications and assembly instructions, is "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." Not that anyone in particular is a fool, but to remind me that anyone can make a mistake at any time. I once had the pleasure of redesigning a machine for improved safety because the operator was hurt while turning her back on the running machine to converse with someone else . . . Stuff happens. To all of us.

If anything, this thread simply reinforces the point--physical separation, color coding, different motions, etc., will reduce the likelihood of making a mistake, but human error will happen anyway. The only way to prevent it is to always pay close attention, but as fallible humans, we cannot always do that. So be careful anyway!

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

I realize that, Greg. But I was trying to make a point--Ross insists that the physical separation, different appearance and motions of his manual gear and hydraulic flaps make it less likely to cross-wire his head and get backwards, but that our electric planes can be more easily confused.

My favorite saying, taped to my monitor when I wrote product specifications and assembly instructions, is "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." Not that anyone in particular is a fool, but to remind me that anyone can make a mistake at any time. I once had the pleasure of redesigning a machine for improved safety because the operator was hurt while turning her back on the running machine to converse with someone else . . . Stuff happens. To all of us.

If anything, this thread simply reinforces the point--physical separation, color coding, different motions, etc., will reduce the likelihood of making a mistake, but human error will happen anyway. The only way to prevent it is to always pay close attention, but as fallible humans, we cannot always do that. So be careful anyway!

[aaronk25]

If your like me this will make your blood boil!!! I called my Insurance company Chartis Insurance and spoke with the adjuster that will be viewing my plane tomorrow. I asked him if there was any way of me recovering my 30K for garmin 650 install, gpss steer and a autopilot rebuild and he said no but my policy allows for up to 14K over the next 3 months for aircraft rental, due to loss of use for the plane.

After a long boring read I ran across somthing very interesting in my insurance policy. Near the bottom there is a section called "DEFINITION OF WORDS" and the first word is "Agreed Value" which is what all our insurance policys are. Mine is 75k which should have been 90K+ given the condition and recent installation of goodies. However not adjusting it was my fault. Ok so the definitaion of agreed value is:

"The amount shown as agreed value plus the amount you have acturally paid, up to 30% of the agreed value, for additional equipment and modification of your aircreaft after the effective date of coverage for this aircraft, provided you tell us in wrighting within 30 days of the additions and modifciation and pay the additional premium for them when due." WAALLLAAA I think I'm good right, wrong they say that we will "consider" adjusting the policy for exactly the price I paid for the equipment, not labor. Wouldn't you think additional equipment (means Garmin 650 ect.) and Modification means (labor or work to put it in)? And P.S. my log book indicates the installation took place 12/20/11.

 

 

[Cris]

As I said either remove the equipment restoring the A/C to the original avionics specs when insured or advise the insurance company of the new equipment with an actual invoice from the shop and request the increased hull value. It does not have to have a break down of labor vs  material it simply need to prove the increased value. If you have the AOPA legal insurance  you might want to make a call & get a free hour with an aviation attorney just in case. The adjuster is not your friend & I would be contacting the broker for his/her advise. They have more of a vested interest in your satisfaction.

[gregwatts]

Quote: Hank

I realize that, Greg. But I was trying to make a point--Ross insists that the physical separation, different appearance and motions of his manual gear and hydraulic flaps make it less likely to cross-wire his head and get backwards, but that our electric planes can be more easily confused.

My favorite saying, taped to my monitor when I wrote product specifications and assembly instructions, is "Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool." Not that anyone in particular is a fool, but to remind me that anyone can make a mistake at any time. I once had the pleasure of redesigning a machine for improved safety because the operator was hurt while turning her back on the running machine to converse with someone else . . . Stuff happens. To all of us.

If anything, this thread simply reinforces the point--physical separation, color coding, different motions, etc., will reduce the likelihood of making a mistake, but human error will happen anyway. The only way to prevent it is to always pay close attention, but as fallible humans, we cannot always do that. So be careful anyway!

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

 Ross--

Here's a picture of the Gear Knob and Flap Lever in my plane. They are in different positions, approached from different angles, with different movement and are different sizes, colors and shapes. Granted, not as different as your J-Bar and hydraulic lever, but then again, I'm not sure what your hydraulics look like; I have seen some J-bar Mooneys but never paid attention to the flap control.

[Shadrach]

Quote: gregwatts

 

Bottom line is.....the POH even calls for flap retraction "after leaving runway". There is another thread on this site regarding the issue of raising flaps on roll out. I doubt any one of the pilots doing this were actually taught to do this.

You are correct....the manufacturer can print these manuals in an attempt to prevent these scenarios.....but it is up to the pilot to actually READ the manual. As I read many of these threads....I can see why there are so many mishaps......most completely preventable.

[gregwatts]

Quote: Shadrach

 

Bottom line is.....the POH even calls for flap retraction "after leaving runway". There is another thread on this site regarding the issue of raising flaps on roll out. I doubt any one of the pilots doing this were actually taught to do this.

You are correct....the manufacturer can print these manuals in an attempt to prevent these scenarios.....but it is up to the pilot to actually READ the manual. As I read many of these threads....I can see why there are so many mishaps......most completely preventable.

[David Mazer]

Aaron, I think you are likely screwed on the avionics other than the equipment costs at this point, if your lucky.  Another post suggested returning the old avionics to the plane but I advise against it unless you get it from a lawyer in writing that would be okay.  Your healthy.  I'm not sure how healthy you would stay in jail.

[201er]

When I was learning complex in an Arrow the instructor told me to drop the flaps after landing to improve braking. In the Mooney it makes an even bigger difference cause the wing continues flying in ground effect longer. It noticeably improves traction and braking.

As for the flap vs gear handle. I don't think there is any question that the devices used for retracting either can be conciously mixed up. The issue is more of wanting to do one thing and it being cross wired to a different operation in the brain. For example on takeoff we'll retract the gear, then retrat the flaps. It's enough to be confused for just an instance on rollout and go into takeoff mode of gear then flaps instead of flaps only and not gear. So what I'm saying is it may not be a matter of confusing the specific handles but altogether operating in a different manner. It only takes one time.

I am an advocate of retracting flaps on roll out. I fly to a 2000ft runway regularly up to gross weight. I need all the traction and braking I can get. This accident freaks the shit out of me cause I set myself up for the same potential. I just hope that 160+ hours in Mooney already has made the motion so mechanical that it's not even concious.

[Hank]

Quote: 201er

So what I'm saying is it may not be a matter of confusing the specific handles but altogether operating in a different manner. It only takes one time.

I am an advocate of retracting flaps on roll out . . . the motion so mechanical that it's not even concious.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

 Therein lies the danger! You have to pay attention to everything you do in your plane, every time. As you said, it only takes once. Distraction is common, the only way to fight it is with training and discipline. How does that quote go--the sky, even m  ore so than the sea, is unforgiving of even small mistakes.

You have to know what you want to do, and make sure that are doing that and not something else . . . . .

My home field is 3000' with trees at both ends, and I visit a 2000' grass strip with a slot in the trees at one end and a cement factory gravel pile at the other, so I understand the desire and effect of raising flaps on the rollout. Keeping my hand on the throttle, I can reach the flaps but not the gear.

Ross, your manual flap and gear levers are somewhat different, but man are they close to each other!

[231Pilot]

The flap and gear switches are far enough apart that it shouldn't be an issue, but I wait until I have cleared the active runway to "clean things up".  No touch and go procedures in the current plane, practice go arounds...yes, touch and go...no.

[Hank]

Ross, just don't accidentally grab the J-bar and let muscle memory take over. Distractions happen to everyone.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Hank

Ross, just don't accidentally grab the J-bar and let muscle memory take over. Distractions happen to everyone.

[aaronk25]

Wanted to conclude this thread by saying that the I've been back in the air for a about 4 months and the airplane is better than when I bought it last October. I certainly wouldn't have chosen to have the miss hap I did, but the plane got gone completely though and Wilmar MN Mooney shop did a outstanding job. Brian the owner has been very responsive and a great partner in helping get everything fixed.

I did have quite a issue trying to get Chartis Aerospace to honor the additional equipment and had to get the MN dept of Commerce involved but as soon as Chartis recieved a letter from the state, they agreed to cover the equipment installed just days before, as they were required to per my insurance contract.

There has been much heated debate on this forum whether to buy a plane with damage history or not and I can offer my opinion that if its repaired by a quality shop such as Wilmar or others and the prop stike engine inspection is done by a reputable shop the aircraft will be in better condition than previously as everything gets looked at, seals get replaced, ect. I'm just glad I am back in the air and can't say enough good things about Brian and the crew at Willmar.

[jetdriven]

Aaron, glad you are back in the air and a 201 was saved. I hope your story convinces a few more folks to not touch anything until they are at taxi speed or clear of the runway. There is a reason you will bust a checkride or airline type ride for such things, because it is hazardous. Now, lets see some pictures !!