FL210 in a N/A M20E

[Parker_Woodruff]

Wow.  Some really uninformed comments on this thread.  I have personal minimums while on O2 in an non-pressurized aircraft.  That would happen to be somewhere in the range of FL210, unless pop-up wx called for higher.  but I don't fault anyone who wants to try for higher.

I think FL210 is perfectly reasonable.

[AndyFromCB]

I also love all the comments about how one has 5 minutes to figure it out at 20,000. Spent over 12 hours on top of Kilamanjaro few years back after and many expeditions to Andes and Mexican volcanos at 16,000 to 18,000 feet and back then I was still smoking too ;-). Over 23,000 feet is where the human body really starts running into problems. At 20,000, unless severly out of shape, you're not going to pass out in 5 minutes, probably not in 30 minutes either. Might take a few hours if ever.

Can somebody please explain to me how the laws of physics get violated in an open gas system over FL250? How can there be more pressure in my lungs than outside?

See http://patricialipe.com/oxygen.htm

Above routinelly uses cannulas to 25,000 feet. Pressure breathing not really required until about 39,000 feet. 

 

[xftrplt]

Quote: astelmaszek

I also love all the comments about how one has 5 minutes to figure it out at 20,000. Spent over 12 hours on top of Kilamanjaro few years back after and many expeditions to Andes and Mexican volcanos at 16,000 to 18,000 feet and back then I was still smoking too ;-). Over 23,000 feet is where the human body really starts running into problems. At 20,000, unless severly out of shape, you're not going to pass out in 5 minutes, probably not in 30 minutes either. Might take a few hours if ever.I also lo

Can somebody please explain to me how the laws of physics get violated in an open gas system over FL250? How can there be more pressure in my lungs than outside?

See http://patricialipe.com/oxygen.htm

Above routinelly uses cannulas to 25,000 feet. Pressure breathing not really required until about 39,000 feet. 

[AndyFromCB]

I call BS, essentially, occording to your interpretation of avweb article, it is not possible to breathe and survive above 25,000 without pressure breathing? I'm sure all those who climbed Everest without oxygen would like to disagree. The alveolar sacs is basically a gas exchange mebrane, hence less O2 and more CO2 on the inside of the membrane but still it is a membrane, creating an open system, the pressure will equalize to the ambient pressure of the lungs. The lungs pressure will always be equal to ambient pressure and so will be the pressure inside alveolar sac. The author of the avweb article is using the words 'pressure' and/or 'concentration', interchangably and they are not. The oxygen diffuses thru osmosis like mechanism with hemoglobin, it depends on concentration not pressure. Plenty of videos of Acclaims on youtube at 25,000 doing just fine ;-)

[Immelman]

[Swingin]

Quote: astelmaszek

I call BS, essentially, occording to your interpretation of avweb article, it is not possible to breathe and survive above 25,000 without pressure breathing? I'm sure all those who climbed Everest without oxygen would like to disagree. The alveolar sacs is basically a gas exchange mebrane, hence less O2 and more CO2 on the inside of the membrane but still it is a membrane, creating an open system, the pressure will equalize to the ambient pressure of the lungs. The lungs pressure will always be equal to ambient pressure and so will be the pressure inside alveolar sac. The author of the avweb article is using the words 'pressure' and/or 'concentration', interchangably and they are not. The oxygen diffuses thru osmosis like mechanism with hemoglobin, it depends on concentration not pressure. Plenty of videos of Acclaims on youtube at 25,000 doing just fine ;-)

[xftrplt]

Quote: astelmaszek

I call BS, essentially, occording to your interpretation of avweb article, it is not possible to breathe and survive above 25,000 without pressure breathing? I'm sure all those who climbed Everest without oxygen would like to disagree. The alveolar sacs is basically a gas exchange mebrane, hence less O2 and more CO2 on the inside of the membrane but still it is a membrane, creating an open system, the pressure will equalize to the ambient pressure of the lungs. The lungs pressure will always be equal to ambient pressure and so will be the pressure inside alveolar sac. The author of the avweb article is using the words 'pressure' and/or 'concentration', interchangably and they are not. The oxygen diffuses thru osmosis like mechanism with hemoglobin, it depends on concentration not pressure. Plenty of videos of Acclaims on youtube at 25,000 doing just fine ;-)

[xftrplt]

Quote: Swingin:  While Dick and I diverge somewhat on risk adversity in this topic.

Not to quibble, but I don't think we disagree on risk adversity or how we ourselves might fly.  I've just been trying to point out the facts so others may make their own informed decisions.

I've avoided any recommendations, suggestions, or judgments.

[AndyFromCB]

Gentleman,

I've never stated the article was being written by a fool. As far as I read the responses and posts, the article was being used to state that pressure breathing is required at 25,000 feet when it's clearly not. Clearly, we need to use oxygen above 12,000 feet, clearly, you will not live long at 25,000 without it, I mentioned previously the death zone above 23,000. However, no pressure breathing is required at 25,000. A good old mask will do. The pressure inside one's lungs will be close to ambien pressure within fraction of a second. That is all I am trying say.

Andy

[xftrplt]

Quote: astelmaszek

Gentleman,

I've never stated the article was being written by a fool. As far as I read the responses and posts, the article was being used to state that pressure breathing is required at 25,000 feet when it's clearly not. Clearly, we need to use oxygen above 12,000 feet, clearly, you will not live long at 25,000 without it, I mentioned previously the death zone above 23,000. However, no pressure breathing is required at 25,000. A good old mask will do. The pressure inside one's lungs will be close to ambien pressure within fraction of a second. That is all I am trying say.

Andy

[gregwatts]

So.......should he fly LOP or ROP at FL 250?

[gregwatts]

glitch

[AndyFromCB]

  It's cool you've climbed a mountain and saw a picture of a guy in an Acclaim once though.

[Immelman]

Guys, we're all fortunate enough to fly some the best aircraft on earth. That's quite a blessing, really. May I suggest backing off a moment to reflect on that before writing something that might be seen as negative or insulting?

[AndyFromCB]

All's well that ends well. I'm not insulted and I hope nobody else is. Just good old fashioned tit for tat. I'm sure I'll soon have another question about my Mooney and either xftplt or swingin or someone else will have an answer for me when I actually have no idea what I'm talking about.. Happens all the time, can't figure out everything from a picture on YouTube, you know. 

BTW, cannot recommend Autopilot Central highly enough. What an awsome crew ;-)

[Clarence]

I have to un-subscribe, this thread it just gotten too long.....

Clarence

[M20F]

Quote: Immelman

Guys, we're all fortunate enough to fly some the best aircraft on earth. 

[jetdriven]

80 degrees ROP and 2700 RPM.  No other power setting will make it up there. 

Quote: gregwatts

So.......should he fly LOP or ROP at FL 250?

[AndyFromCB]

ROP is my only option ;-) Here is a good reason for going up there

[stevesm20b]

Kind of makes you wonder how those early mountain climbers ever made it to the top of Mt Everest.

[AndyFromCB]

Hillary and Norgey were both on oxygen on the first ascent. It's been climbed without many times since then but we are talking about freaks of nature. I think the quote from Messner is:

...

Messner testified into his tape recorder that, "breathing becomes such a serious business we scarcely have strength to go on." He described feeling like his mind was dead—and that it was only his soul that compelled him to crawl forward.

...

Hypoxia is a funny thing, I've spent 12 hours at 20,000 feet only 5 days after ariving from at near sea level and was fine. Few years earlier in the Wind River Range, I had a complete meltdown at about 13,000 in August so about 15,000 DA. Then few months later just fine at 17,500 in Mexico. At the altitudes were are talking about even minute unrelated sickness and overall exhaustion can make it or break it.