Interested in this M20K 252 but have concerns

[skyfarer]

Hello and Happy New Year!

I'd like to hear opinions from you all on this M20K 231 with 252 mods that's currently listed on Trade-a-plane. This will be my first Mooney purchase.

The good, it's owned by an A&P/IA who brought it out of sitting idle for many years, and has been working on it. (replaced a cylinder, tires, ADSB out xpnder, etc).

The concern, it sounds like from the broker that the A&P is not current and isn't flying it.  He had intentions of getting current and using the plane for commuting between his A&P shops  located in different states. But, it sounds like time is getting the best of him.

I'd feel more comfortable if the plane was flying regularly after all this recent work. I'd really like to see it flown about 10 hours and an oil analysis conducted. Is this overly cautious of me?

Here's the listing.... like I said above, I'd really value your take on it, since I'm going to be a first time airplane owner and a first time Mooney owner.

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/search?category_level1=Single+Engine+Piston&make=MOONEY&model=M20K+252&listing_id=2399957&s-type=aircraft#

A little about me: I'm currently flying a 182 in a club, 250 hour pilot very close to getting my IR. I posted here a few weeks ago about short vs mid body Mooney's. After looking at M20J's, giving more thought to it, and a review of my financial situation, I've decided that an M20K 231 is what I really want. A 231 with 252 mods isn't out of the question either (like this one).

Edited January 3, 2022 by skyfarer
clarified that it's a 231 with 252 mods

[231LV]

hmmm....something not making sense....the 1980 model year was a 231 with the TSIO-360-GB engine. The 252 wasn't built until 1986 and had the TSIO-360-MB engine. My suggestion is you figure out what is  going on....the price point is a 231, not a 252.

[Schllc]

No flight history in the last 15 years.

If I were to consider purchasing this, I would anticipate(budget) the expectation of having to do everything in the next three years or sooner.   Not saying it will, but a proper expectation makes for a pleasant purchase. 
Definitely make sure the A/P is a diligent professional.
 

[Aerodon]

The engine is a bit strange, looks like it was made in 1988, then installed in this plane around 1997 with 457 TT? , then has flown very little since then.  It's not a 252, but quite likely one of the 2 STC's to convert from a 231 to a 252.   I would check that the paperwork is in order for the installation.  The photos of the engine installation look correct for this mod.

I would value this like a 231, with a bump up for the 252 'STC'.  It looks a pretty clean airframe, but be sure to get the proper PPI done to check for corrosion.  I would consider (and value) the engine as 'runout', with a bit of luck you might get another1 or 200 hours for it.  But be prepared to overhaul at any time.

(I do have a TSIO360MB1 core that I am thinking of selling or parting out, you could get this engine ready to drop in so that you don't wait 6 months for an engine overhaul?)

Aerodon

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Aerodon]

  On 1/3/2022 at 2:34 AM, philip_g said:

And there's more to the 252 than just the -mb engine 

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The photo's seem to show all the correct engine parts for a 252 - done under one of the 2 STC's.    Engine, cowl look correct to me.  There's not a whole lot more to the 252 over the 231?  Cowl flaps.  28V. Single piece belly pan (on 1984 and newer 231's too).

Then the Encore has different brakes, control surface balance weights and engine settings.

A little off topic, but Presley is selling the parts to 'convert' an  TSIO360 LB to a TSIO360MB1.  I was going to call BS, but then I thought it through and I think it could be done.  The engines have a common crank and case.  Cylinders different.  Induction system different.  Exhaust and turbo system different.  But you could do a TSIO360LBcMB. 

Aerodon

 

 

[LANCECASPER]

I almost bought a one owner 231 near Atlanta back in 2011 from the widow for $40,000. When I went to look at it, although the logbooks had annual inspections in them by a mechanic who was friend of the family . . . the airplane hadn't seen a wrench in 10 years. (The person that ended up buying it had a gear collapse in Beaumont TX a month after buying it and it totaled the airplane)

Within an hour after looking at it, I calculated that if someone was to give me the airplane, by the time I was done with it, it would be the world's most expensive 231.

This advice keeps getting repeated over and over on Mooneyspace, but here goes . .  in the long run the best deal is almost always going to be one of the higher priced, well-sorted examples on the market with a lot of the upgrades you'd want, already done by the owner. 

(It's a 262 Trophy Conversion - STC SA2445CE)

[Aerodon]

  On 1/3/2022 at 2:15 AM, skyfarer said:

The good, it's owned by an A&P/IA who brought it out of sitting idle for many years, and has been working on it. (replaced a cylinder, tires, ADSB out xpnder, etc).

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I looked through the photos, and it seemed like one cylinder (#5) does not have the tapered cooling fins that a MB engine should have. I may be wrong, it's hard to tell.  The MB / SB / RB cylinders cost way more than the other aftermarket cylinders, probably because there are no competitors for it.  The cooling fins should reduce in diameter as  you count down towards the base.

Aerodon

 

 

[Will.iam]

It has the tuned induction system of the 252 from the pics. It’s a 12V system. Did the STC also include the second alternator? 252 conversion is as far as this can go. No path to goto an encore or weight increase later on. I. E. You are stuck at 2900 max gross weight for better or for worse. Does have the extended fuel tanks. When was the turbo overhauled? With them doing a top overhaul already shows the engine was run pretty hard so i would look very closely at the turbo as it’s most likely runout by now. 

[LANCECASPER]

I have never seen one of these before.

 

It's either an electronic CDI of some kind . .  or its a device that let's you and your co-pilot play Pong during flight.

 

 

 

[redbaron1982]

I'm not very experienced in Mooneys nor as an aircraft owner but here my comments:

* For me being the AC onwer an AP/IA is more a concern than a good point. He may have taken shortcuts or overlooked some points, knowing that at the end he was signing it off. I'm not saying that is the case, but is a probability. 

 * Avionics wise it is not very nice.

 * As everyone said, it is not a 252. At most a 261, a 252 firewall forward conversion. Not the extra MTOW or the 24V electric system. 

 * Not flying in 15 years? A huge no for me. 

 * Engine is around 200 hours from OH, plus not flying in that much time, as was already mentioned, plan to OH in the next 200 hours. 

In all, I think you should budget north of 60k of expected maintenance expenses on the next year. 

The TTAF is low though. Do you know if it was kept hangared the whole time?

 

 

[skyfarer]

  On 1/3/2022 at 3:06 AM, LANCECASPER said:

I have never seen one of these before.

 

It's either an electronic CDI of some kind . .  or its a device that let's you and your co-pilot play Pong during flight.

 

 

 

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Haha yes! If that thing doesn't play pong, this plane is a "no go" for me.

[carusoam]

Extra points if you know the owner…

if you don’t, this probably does not make for a good first ownership experience…

Better for somebody else that has this type of ownership experience already.

Prior owner is passed… plane has sat for years… (details in the ad!)

risk/reward… great if you are a mechanic…

-a-

[skyfarer]

Wow thanks for all the quick responses! Most of you are confirming my gut feeling on it, I will probably have much less headache if I spend more money on a M20K 231 that's been flown regularly. I have found two that were great, a bit overpriced, but otherwise everything I want. Of course both were already under contract, one of them less than 24 hours after it posted! 

[carusoam]

Semi plumbed for O2… 

Pre-purchase inspection is going to be worth it’s weight in gold….

-a-

[LANCECASPER]

  On 1/3/2022 at 3:29 AM, philip_g said:

What's the basic empty weight? I bet she's a heavy girl with the old RCA radar and all the panel crap lol

 

Wait, what the shit is this?

Plumbed for Oxygen - No Bottle On Board	

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The logs show at times the bottle was taken out for a hydrostatic check, so it had one at times. It probably timed out during the 2013-on hiatus. Thankfully the bottle only makes up less than 1/4 of the cost of installing the whole system. This one had a steel 115 cu ft bottle, which is good for 25 years I believe. A lighter kevlar bottle which has a 15 yr life can be substituted. $1500 - $2000 depending on choices.

[LANCECASPER]

  On 1/3/2022 at 3:27 AM, skyfarer said:

Wow thanks for all the quick responses! Most of you are confirming my gut feeling on it, I will probably have much less headache if I spend more money on a M20K 231 that's been flown regularly. I have found two that were great, a bit overpriced, but otherwise everything I want. Of course both were already under contract, one of them less than 24 hours after it posted! 

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The good ones go fast.

Was this one of them? https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/210640769/1979-mooney-m20k-231-piston-single-aircraft

[RoundTwo]

I also chased this one for a VERY short time. The lack of flying was a huge red flag to me. I figured the motor to be toast after sitting unused for so long but they’re still asking retail money. It was originally listed at 130, but quickly dropped it 10k. I guess I wasn’t the only one skeptical. Price is way to high to accept all of the unknowns.
 

It would be a great project plane for an A&P since it will probably need a very thorough going over.

[amillet]

  On 1/3/2022 at 3:27 AM, skyfarer said:

Wow thanks for all the quick responses! Most of you are confirming my gut feeling on it, I will probably have much less headache if I spend more money on a M20K 231 that's been flown regularly. I have found two that were great, a bit overpriced, but otherwise everything I want. Of course both were already under contract, one of them less than 24 hours after it posted! 

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Fair market value = willing seller + willing buyer 

[milotron]

Interesting that it has the MB engine from the 252 but still has the two-piece cowl flaps per the GB and LB. I thought all of the 'firewall forward' upgrades like the 262 mod changed that out too.

[kortopates]

  On 1/3/2022 at 9:53 PM, milotron said:

Interesting that it has the MB engine from the 252 but still has the two-piece cowl flaps per the GB and LB. I thought all of the 'firewall forward' upgrades like the 262 mod changed that out too.

me too. But i have seen lots of variation in cowl flaps with manual cable controls rather than electric. So I would want to see the conversion approvals (i.e. 337s) for exactly how it was done including a pict of the engine data plate for its heritage.

That said the very best 231s are converted 261/262’s, but this could be a one off rare field approval. But hard to know what this is.

Don’t under estimate the valve of the altitude compensating regulator if it’s missing with the O2 bottle. The bottle is easy to replace, but the regulator is not.

Reads like it’s needs to be priced as with a runout engine. Not what you’d want for a plane ready to travel.


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[JamesMooney]

Bottom line - the OP wants at least 10 hours of flight time on the plane to make up for 15 years of being on the ground. In my opinion, that's not enough... by a long factor.

Here's an example. I know someone who bought a Mooney with about 400 hours/10 years on it. Even after 160 hours-in-a-year, there are still kinks to be worked out in that plane. So I'm told.

I cannot even begin to imagine the metaphorical cobwebs sitting on an idle 15 year-zero hour plane. Also worrying is that an A&P couldn't get this plane back in the sky - a cylinder here, a transponder there, was the best they could muster. I suspect there's a lot more to be done. A new owner who is not an A&P will be at the mercy of a local shop or MSC to get this plane squared away - and given schedules in maintenance shops these days, that could set this OP back by months, even a year, to get in the air.

Bottom line - if the OP wants to fly, I would suggest they avoid the 15 years of deferred maintenance and the almost-guaranteed extreme wait times to get this plane squared away - spend a bit more, and buy a plane that flies 100+ hours/year. That way, the OP will be able to sleep soundly at night knowing they will 'probably' be able to fly that much right away themselves too.

Edited January 4, 2022 by FlyingCanuck

[skyfarer]

  On 1/3/2022 at 1:51 PM, LANCECASPER said:

The good ones go fast.

Was this one of them? https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/210640769/1979-mooney-m20k-231-piston-single-aircraft

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Yes! That one was not overpriced in my opinion though. Just lacking a few items I want, like WAAS, but otherwise really disappointed I wasn’t the first one to jump on it.