lycoming EIS woes...

[bmcconnaha]

wanted to share both my experience with lycoming my Lycoming EIS.  At this point i can not recommend anyone purchase the EIS from lycoming.  Normally i would only share positivity, but i do not want anyone to go down this road with a lycoming EIS (especially on a 24v plane)  A little backstory.  Nov of last year i ordered a 390 Mooney for my 1990J.  the engine was delivered in March of this year.  I had the option of the EIS and i decided it was something i wanted.  Install the EIS with the engine, and fire it up for the first flight.  I had to abort the takeoff roll becasue the engine fell flat on its face after we smoothly applied full power.  went back, ran it up again, and it ran better, so we took off.  All is fine with the exception a new noise in the headset,  after a few hours it became bad enough i really wanted to get to the bottom.  i dediced to pull the interior and run shielded wire instead of the wire the installation letter called for.  That took care of most of the noise.  we thought all was well, but about every five or so hours of flight, the engine would stumble badly.  the first time it did this i went through the fuel system (beliveing it to be fuel related, as did savvy) , and found nothing abnormal.  the second time i was in the EXACT same location where it ran poorly the first time.  I decided to relook at the data from the JPI and i noticed a very small voltage spike.  I called SUREFLY (the manufaturer, and they said the 24v is a known issue.  that is why they have the power conditioner.  i cant use their power conditioner becasue i dont have a surefly, or the surefly STC, i have a lycoming branded surefly.  i then called lycoming and learned the EIS they sent me was a very old software revision, they are aware of the 24v issues, and have a new software. (why they didnt send that when they sent the engine, i do not know).  I pay the 1595 for the new EIS that they will reimburese under warranty.  new EIS shows up, we install it.  i go to run it up, and it runs fine, except when i click to the EIS.  Cylinder 3 misfires severly.  Smooth as silk on the slick mag in the right spot.  We swap plugs with Cyl 3, no change in cylinder 3.  In Chasing the ignition noise, i ended up buying a brand new ignition harness from Maggie ignition, had it sitting on my bench, we install it to see if maybe i have a bad lead. no change. one more plug swap, another runup and cyl three still runs poorly on the EIS. i called lycoming this morning.  They will ship another one, but need another 1600.  (airpower stepped up here, (shout out to Natalie in the warranty dept there) and offered to cover the cost so i am not out another 1600 plus labor waiting for lycoming to reimburse.  several hours later, lycoming tech support calls back.  the good news, the mag is fine.  they wont ship another.  the bad news is the engine will most likely only run smooth only with the alternator off.  they are aware of the issue, and are working on another plane with the same cylinder misfire in 3.  Annual expires tomorrow, plane is due in troutdale OR, for an annual tomorrow also.  here i sit, AOG waiting for lycoming to call back with yet another change in the wiring.  At this point i am no longer interested in being what it feels like lycoming made me, a test mule.  lycoming will not tell me what changes are made to the software after they aquire the EIS from surefly, but there are quite a few they claim.  Sounds like my best option is to buy a surefly on my dollar, install it and see if that fixes it.  id go back to a mag, but i will also need a slick start in place of the EIS to handle starting duties.  So, maybe surefly is the best option at this point? hopefully this serves someone well that is on the fence of a lycoming EIS in place of a mag on an engine coming from lycoming.  looking like ill need a ferry permit in addition to a new mag to get it to annual in troutdale.  

[carusoam]

bmc,

Thanks for sharing the news…

Have you called SureFly at all?

It might shine the light on something if you were to share your experience with them…

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

2 minutes ago, carusoam said:

bmc,

Thanks for sharing the news…

Have you called SureFly at all?

It might shine the light on something if you were to share your experience with them…

PP thoughts only…

Best regards,

-a-

been on the phone with them quite a bit actually. they said it sounds like i have done all i can.  

[ragedracer1977]

It seems, for some reason, there are just some planes that can't use EIS.  Who knows what that reason is, but I've heard (and suffered) the same complaint as you from several people now 

[carusoam]

Interesting….

If voltage spikes are the source of the misbehavior…

You might want to review any JPI data that you have collected….

Unfortunately, data collected every second or two may miss what the EIS is seeing…

But, something to review in case there is noise that is visible, that may be a cause for this oddity…

Best regards,

-a-

[bmcconnaha]

19 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Interesting….

If voltage spikes are the source of the misbehavior…

You might want to review any JPI data that you have collected….

Unfortunately, data collected every second or two may miss what the EIS is seeing…

But, something to review in case there is noise that is visible, that may be a cause for this oddity…

Best regards,

-a-

That was the source of the initial problem the warranty replacement EIS was to fix.  This is a completely separate issue.  Lycoming says it’s software related, nothing wrong with the mag, but they are working on a fix, LOL.  Just tried a latch ditch effort suggested by lycoming.  Turn the alternator off and run it up.  No change.  One latch ditch effort from swapping plugs again (surely recommended to try one last time), no change.  Guess I’ll report back to lycoming tomorrow that neither idea worked and see where I stand.

[MB65E]

I like my Bendix Mags!

nice report. 

Sorry for your troubles. 
Any idea if the EIS system is on any other models? I seem to remember the Lancair Evolution EIS 540 had issues as well. That was years ago.

Overall EIS is a great idea on paper, but needs to play nice with everyone. 
 

-Matt

[bmcconnaha]

Just now, MB65E said:

I like my Bendix Mags!

nice report. 

Sorry for your troubles. 
Any idea if the EIS system is on any other models? I seem to remember the Lancair Evolution EIS 540 had issues as well. That was years ago.

Overall EIS is a great idea on paper, but needs to play nice with everyone. 
 

-Matt

Lycoming EIS is a replacement for a bendix or slick mag, so they are approved for most models of lycoming engines. Hard to believe we’re struggling with bringing 100 year old technology to automotive technology of the 80s.  

[Guest]

Long live the magneto!  While not as efficient as these new systems they work well when maintained correctly.

Clarence

[EricJ]

Can you put in a mag with an impulse coupler?

The amount of trouble I've seen people have with these things for only small potential benefit doesn't seem to be worth it.    As you say, it's really first gen automotive electronic ignition technology, but it sure doesn't seem to me to be worth the hassle compared to a mag.

 

[McMooney]

My surefly has been absolutely flawless.  engine starts and runs like butter.

One day i'll get a switch so it doesn't stumble when checking mags.   

the 28v issue is well known to surefly, i wonder why you aren't allowed the same fixes for the lycoming "surefly"

 

 

 

[bmcconnaha]

37 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Can you put in a mag with an impulse coupler?

The amount of trouble I've seen people have with these things for only small potential benefit doesn't seem to be worth it.    As you say, it's really first gen automotive electronic ignition technology, but it sure doesn't seem to me to be worth the hassle compared to a mag.

 

if you are planning to leave the timing fixed, it isnt worth the hassle.  trust me 

[bmcconnaha]

3 minutes ago, McMooney said:

My surefly has been absolutely flawless.  engine starts and runs like butter.

One day i'll get a switch so it doesn't stumble when checking mags.   

the 28v issue is well known to surefly, i wonder why you aren't allowed the same fixes for the lycoming "surefly"

 

 

 

because the surefly is installed with an stc and 337.  the lycoming is done with a minor mod. lycoming said no to the power conditioner and chose to handle the voltage sensitivity issue with a software fix.  guess what, thier software didnt work.  thats the problem.  they (lycoming) called me this morning and they do not have a fix.  it sounds like them reimbursing me for a surefly is what i am going to pursue.  

[Niko182]

I think in the future, I'll probably pick up an Electroair instead of a Surefly / Lycoming, especially since I have a 28v system. I know the EA system has issues every now and then, however they seem to happen a lot less than compared to Surefly.

[bmcconnaha]

2 minutes ago, Niko182 said:

I think in the future, I'll probably pick up an Electroair instead of a Surefly / Lycoming, especially since I have a 28v system. I know the EA system has issues every now and then, however they seem to happen a lot less than compared to Surefly.

im willing to try the surefly.  most of the issues seem resolvable.  lycomings revision is an absolute disaster.   

[GeeBee]

I am sure this is frustrating because this engine was shipped from Lycoming with their product attached. It should work with 28V period or it should not be offered. This is nice for Experimental engines, it is not cool for certified.

[bmcconnaha]

44 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

I am sure this is frustrating because this engine was shipped from Lycoming with their product attached. It should work with 28V period or it should not be offered. This is nice for Experimental engines, it is not cool for certified.

my point exactly.  certified products shouldnt leave the end user finishing their R&D.  been on the phone three times with lycoming engineering today, and mine isnt the only one they are having trouble with.  they dont know how to fix it or what the issue is, and frankly i am tired of trying their suggestions in a hangar that is 102 degrees inside.  I do also belive since they shipped it with the wrong revision software on the EIS in the first place, it was wrong of them to make me pay 1595 to get the new EIS shipped.  im still waiting for that refund. maybe the pacific northwest heat wave is making me extra grumpy LOL.

[Tx_Aggie]

7 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

my point exactly.  certified products shouldnt leave the end user finishing their R&D.  been on the phone three times with lycoming engineering today, and mine isnt the only one they are having trouble with.  they dont know how to fix it or what the issue is, and frankly i am tired of trying their suggestions in a hangar that is 102 degrees inside.  I do also belive since they shipped it with the wrong revision software on the EIS in the first place, it was wrong of them to make me pay 1595 to get the new EIS shipped.  im still waiting for that refund. maybe the pacific northwest heat wave is making me extra grumpy LOL.

You Might consider cutting bait and trying elecroair. While I don’t know what life was like before the install, as it was already installed on mine before I purchased, it fires right up and runs really smooth. 1980 M20J

[jetdriven]

Pull both of those magnetos off and put on two Bendix 1200s. And then roll on for hundreds of hours reliably, and those mags have a really good spark too.

[bmcconnaha]

1 hour ago, Tx_Aggie said:

You Might consider cutting bait and trying elecroair. While I don’t know what life was like before the install, as it was already installed on mine before I purchased, it fires right up and runs really smooth. 1980 M20J

I am so deep into this project at the moment, the thought of spending another dime makes me want to vomit, lol.  Also, I have an IO390 in my J, I doubt electroair has an STC for that engine/airframe combo.  

[bmcconnaha]

15 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Pull both of those magnetos off and put on two Bendix 1200s. And then roll on for hundreds of hours reliably, and those mags have a really good spark too.

After lycoming called me today and told me they can’t fix my problem yet, and no eta on getting it fixed I decided to buy a surefly on my own dime to get the power conditioner. If this isn’t perfect, off it comes, I’ll send it back, I’ll put a slick mag I already own on (it would be on there if I wasn’t pressed for time already, I would need to add a slick start since I have no impulse coupling).  At 500 hours I’ll take them off and buy a couple bendix mags. 

[Bob - S50]

This thread reminds me to never buy a re-branded item.  Get it from the original manufacturer.  They are the people that will know how something works and how to fix it.

[carusoam]

Just now, Bob - S50 said:

This thread reminds me to never buy a re-branded item.  Get it from the original manufacturer.  They are the people that will know how something works and how to fix it.

I think this may be referred to as… the class in aviation business school called BK101….  

Best regards,

-a-

[Ragsf15e]

9 hours ago, bmcconnaha said:

After lycoming called me today and told me they can’t fix my problem yet, and no eta on getting it fixed I decided to buy a surefly on my own dime to get the power conditioner. If this isn’t perfect, off it comes, I’ll send it back, I’ll put a slick mag I already own on (it would be on there if I wasn’t pressed for time already, I would need to add a slick start since I have no impulse coupling).  At 500 hours I’ll take them off and buy a couple bendix mags. 

Are you going to put on the whole SF or just the conditioner?  At this point Id take the extra minutes to ditch the lyc eis completely and install the brand new SF.

[jetdriven]

You could just put the power conditioner on the power line to the EIS. I have a friend who installed a 28V surefly on his 201. He has had a bunch of problems like the OP has listed.