Mooney + ZEROBreeze AC, think it'll work

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, jaylw314 said:

Ah, thanks, I did a double-take when I first saw "tons"

I've always wondered why we don't use the household water supply as a cooler for AC condensers--preheat the water going into your water heater, since you still need hot water during the summer

Not enough water flow, the amount of heat removed is substantial, plus as the water gets more than warm, efficiency tanks, so you need only cool or cold water.

‘GE used to build a heat pump water heater, but I think it didn’t sell due to cost, people don’t want to save energy anymore as evidenced by the number of SUV’s and pickups on the road.

Ground source heat pumps used to be the rage back in the 70’s after the energy crisis, they had either a whole lot of buried pipe and recirculated the water or two wells, pump out of one and discharge into the other. I had two wells at the old house and considered it.

But air heat exchangers due to size and materials and construction techniques pretty much wiped out the efficiency gap and the ground source pumps had maintenance issues, wouldn’t think so, but apparently they did.

‘A heat pump as it’s not creating heat, but moving it, achieves greater than 100% efficiency.

You can depending on where you live bury a lot of pipe and pull air though it, SW Ga for instance the average year round temp is 68F. I used to do a lot of cave diving, the water was always 68f regardless of the time of year.

Edited April 30, 2021 by A64Pilot

[jaylw314]

6 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Not enough water flow, the amount of heat removed is substantial, plus as the water gets more than warm, efficiency tanks, so you need only cool or cold water.

‘GE used to build a heat pump water heater, but I think it didn’t sell due to cost, people don’t want to save energy anymore as evidenced by the number of SUV’s and pickups on the road.

Ground source heat pumps used to be the rage back in the 70’s after the energy crisis, they had either a whole lot of buried pipe and recirculated the water or two wells, pump out of one and discharge into the other. I had two wells at the old house and considered it.

But air heat exchangers due to size and materials and construction techniques pretty much wiped out the efficiency gap and the ground source pumps had maintenance issues, wouldn’t think so, but apparently they did.

‘A heat pump as it’s not creating heat, but moving it, achieves greater than 100% efficiency.

You can depending on where you live bury a lot of pipe and pull air though it, SW Ga for instance the average year round temp is 68F. I used to do a lot of cave diving, the water was always 68f regardless of the time of year.

I didn't realize the ground source heat pump was a thing, that's a shame it doesn't end up being cost effective.  

I had to read that last paragraph a couple times, the first time I read it my reaction was "Where the hell in Georgia is it 68F all year round?????"  I remember being there in November once, and even at night I still felt like a wilted leaf of lettuce...

[A64Pilot]

This is a ground water temp map of the US. I’ve been told but can’t verify that the ground water temp is the average air temp year round.

https://assets.supply.com/ul_pdfs/284997_groundwatertemperaturemap.pdf

Ground source heat pumps

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothermal_heat_pump

[LANCECASPER]

On 4/28/2021 at 10:25 AM, LANCECASPER said:

Next month I'm finishing up the details with my mechanic for a 50 pound portable AC - it's brutal in Texas in the summer. Not cheap (+/- $5000), but will be easily detachable. The avionics shop ran the power and control wires back to the baggage compartment during my upgrade a few months ago. My IA is going to cut the holes in the baggage compartment, ducting the hot air to the tail section and the small hole will run the condensation to the back and out the belly where the older type vented batteries were previously vented.  

I bought a couple of extra tail inspection panels where we will have louvers to exhaust the air. (The original panels can easily be put back on to satisfy any future mechanics or owners.) It can run off an extra battery or ship's power (I have two 70 amp alternators) or both battery and ship's power. 

Here's a discussion of it: https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=180521

 

Just a follow-up. A little scary watching the IA cut a hole in your airplane.

 

 

Finishing up today. I am amazed at the amount of air this things blows. I'm looking forward to giving it a workout this summer.

 

 

[hypertech]

Are you worried about blowing the hot air exhaust right onto the avionics?  At least in my plane that's where the transponder other things are mounted.

[LANCECASPER]

3 minutes ago, hypertech said:

Are you worried about blowing the hot air exhaust right onto the avionics?  At least in my plane that's where the transponder other things are mounted.

I only have my Stormscope 500 processor and an ELT back there.

[A64Pilot]

Probably battery too, but I think it gets a whole lot hotter back there sealed up and sitting in the Summer Sun, I woudn’t be surprised if the evaporator fan actually cooled things.

‘But if you want to monitor temp back there, there are cheap wireless fridge temp indicators, but they only go to 140F.

‘This one is meant for grilling and covers 33 to over 500F

[LANCECASPER]

51 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Probably battery too, but I think it gets a whole lot hotter back there sealed up and sitting in the Summer Sun, I woudn’t be surprised if the evaporator fan actually cooled things.

‘But if you want to monitor temp back there, there are cheap wireless fridge temp indicators, but they only go to 140F.

‘This one is meant for grilling and covers 33 to over 500F

I'll order one - that's a good idea. Last summer I could have put the second probe in me to see how hot I was.

I agree though, with some air moving around back there it wouldn't surprise me if it was at least as cool if not cooler than being sealed up.

[A64Pilot]

Depends on the color of the aircraft too of course, one of the vacations the Army sent me on they were curious how hot all the black boxes were getting so we put “ temp a dot” stickers on them with I think 250 as the hottest dot.

‘All the dots turned black so however hot they were getting it was over 250, but the aircraft were a dark color.

‘Whoever had my Mooney had it repainted years ago, the dark blue and white looks nice, but they put the dark blue on top, so it’s a solar heat collector, I don’t even pull it out of the hanger in Fl until we are ready to go cause give it 30 min and it’s REAL hot.

I’m curious to see how your experiment goes.

Is it a 110V machine and you use an inverter? I’m asking to see if you can pre-cool the airplane in the hanger. I have a theory that if you can pre cool an airplane that will make a big difference 

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/13/2021 at 7:54 AM, A64Pilot said:

 

I’m curious to see how your experiment goes.

Is it a 110V machine and you use an inverter? I’m asking to see if you can pre-cool the airplane in the hanger. I have a theory that if you can pre cool an airplane that will make a big difference 

It’s 28 volt, but I can pre-cool with a battery.

[A64Pilot]

I zoomed in on your picture and saw that, it has a separate Dean’s connector for the battery.

‘I think I would get me two deep cycle car batteries and a battery minder to pre-cool. 

I know some people have a system that they call on their phone and it turns on the engine pre-heat, surely it could be used to start the AC so you could show up and the interior be nice and cooled off. Air has little mass and is pretty easy to cool off because of the low mass, but the interior of the aircraft of course has lots of mass, and this takes time and energy to cool, this is why I think pre-cooling is key.

‘Anyway its gotten me interested, if you don’t mind report how well it works. 

 

I just read the manual you linked to, one thing doesn’t make sense to me and that’s that it says both the 14V and 28V model will. draw 50 amps.

14V x50= 700W while 28V x50= 1400W? I assume that means the 28V model is twice as powerful?

Edited May 13, 2021 by A64Pilot

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/13/2021 at 6:36 PM, A64Pilot said:

I zoomed in on your picture and saw that, it has a separate Dean’s connector for the battery.

‘I think I would get me two deep cycle car batteries and a battery minder to pre-cool. 

I know some people have a system that they call on their phone and it turns on the engine pre-heat, surely it could be used to start the AC so you could show up and the interior be nice and cooled off. Air has little mass and is pretty easy to cool off because of the low mass, but the interior of the aircraft of course has lots of mass, and this takes time and energy to cool, this is why I think pre-cooling is key.

‘Anyway its gotten me interested, if you don’t mind report how well it works. 

 

I just read the manual you linked to, one thing doesn’t make sense to me and that’s that it says both the 14V and 28V model will. draw 50 amps.

14V x50= 700W while 28V x50= 1400W? I assume that means the 28V model is twice as powerful?

Yes, that's what I assume also.  I ordered a 28V Deep Cycle Lithium (LiFePO4) battery which should be delivered tomorrow to use for pre-cooling.

Fortunately my hangar is behind my house so pre-cooling should be very convenient.

[A64Pilot]

Why Lithium? are you going to put it into the airplane? I assume LifePo4, if so they don’t have a fire concern, but I woudnt put it in the airplane. Reason is a Lithium battery will accept huge charge rates, that’s one of their advantages, so if you put it in the airplane with the idea of it supplying power when the engine RPM is low, I wouldn’t and the reason is that at cruise RPM when the alternator is putting out a lot of power, the battery can and will take every bit it can make to recharge itself where it was running while taxing around and pre-cooling etc. Running an alt at max can lead to it overheating and failing.

‘I was suggesting using a ground power unit to pre-cool, that Dean’s connector makes it easy to plug in 

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Why Lithium? are you going to put it into the airplane? I assume LifePo4, if so they don’t have a fire concern, but I woudnt put it in the airplane. Reason is a Lithium battery will accept huge charge rates, that’s one of their advantages, so if you put it in the airplane with the idea of it supplying power when the engine RPM is low, I wouldn’t and the reason is that at cruise RPM when the alternator is putting out a lot of power, the battery can and will take every bit it can make to recharge itself where it was running while taxing around and pre-cooling etc. Running an alt at max can lead to it overheating and failing.

‘I was suggesting using a ground power unit to pre-cool, that Dean’s connector makes it easy to plug in 

The battery circuit on the A/C is a separate circuit, it is not charging only drawing power as an auxiliary source, like pre-cooling before I have started the airplane. Yes it's a LifePo4 and I will charge that it in the hangar on an appropriate charger for that battery. I have a separate switch to run off of the battery and will turn that off when I switch to aircraft power.

[FloridaMan]

Nope. I bought one and tried it. With the plane inside the hangar and the zero breeze mk2 venting outside the plane, it could maybe cool the pilot’s seat just a touch. With the plane outside, no difference. 

[philiplane]

I have an Arctic Air Real A/C unit in my Aztec. It is about 7000 BTU, and drops the cabin from 95 to about 78 while starting up and taxiing. The ice units will drop the temperature a bit lower, but only for 20-30 minutes. Even with block ice, you just can't store enough cooling to offset South Florida summer heat. I calculated that 9000-11100 BTU would be ideal, but the amperage draw becomes a problem, even with 120 amps available. Installing two 100 amp alternators would solve that, of course at a cost of $4k.

Because of the "portable" factor, the real a/c units must draw outside air in to draw heat from the condenser and push that into the tail. So you can't have a recirculating mode like you have in your car, or an OEM a/c installation. So it will forever be limited by that, but it still makes a huge difference in passenger comfort. Our non-pilot passengers want comfort, and so the cost of the real a/c unit is the cost of keeping them happy. And the cost of schlepping ice to the hangar adds up, even when I have access to commercial FBO ice machines. Time is money. Anything to increase flying time and reduce the hassle is worth it.

Edited May 15, 2021 by philiplane

[Mcstealth]

Probably not, but this will. 

 

 

 

[Will.iam]

On 4/29/2021 at 6:59 PM, EricJ said:

AKA, Air Cycle Machine.   That's the same thing as the "pac" in airliners.   They run off the compressed air from the engine compressor bleed.

Air Cycle Machines were invented in the 1800s right after steam engines provided a way to distribute power via compressed air.   Steam ships crossing the oceans could refrigerate cargo, e.g., food, meat, etc., and passengers.    The same basic design has been used in turbine/jet aircraft for many decades.

In many/most turbine aircraft the bleed air simultaneously provides cabin pressurization and air conditioning.   Both are needed simultaneously since the bleed air is quite hot coming out of the engine compressor.

They're nifty machines, but the turbines inside the ACM can 'splode, and if there is a bearing anywhere (engine, ACM) bleeding oil it'll stink up the cabin.    My understanding is that the most modern airliners, e.g., 787, no longer use bleed air for accessories and cabin pressurization and a/c are all electrically driven (i.e., vapor cycle air conditioners).

 

 

Actually only the 787 so far. Not sure about the new airbus 350 but even new airbus 320 coming off the assembly line still have the old system. 

[Mcstealth]

On 5/12/2021 at 5:21 PM, LANCECASPER said:

Just a follow-up. A little scary watching the IA cut a hole in your airplane.

 

 

Finishing up today. I am amazed at the amount of air this things blows. I'm looking forward to giving it a workout this summer.

 

 

Just finished reading this thread. Wow Lance. Good luck.

Can the unit get closer to the back wall? Seems that there is six or more inches of space left. 

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/16/2021 at 2:51 PM, Mcstealth said:

Just finished reading this thread. Wow Lance. Good luck.

Can the unit get closer to the back wall? Seems that there is six or more inches of space left. 

Yeah I ordered this a couple days ago to cut the space in half. Even so it still takes up less space in the baggage area than the Arctic Air Ice Cooler that I was using before.

 

 

[Mcstealth]

Hmmm. Maybe a split Diffuser of some type, instead of just open piping? Just thinking out loud.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Mcstealth

[Mcstealth]

More ramblings.

Maybe keep the accordian hose for vibration and turbulence reasons? Maybe find a solution where the hose reduces in size from the exit so the hole in the back wall can be cut smaller?

I will shut up now. Good luck. 

[LANCECASPER]

6 minutes ago, Mcstealth said:

More ramblings.

Maybe keep the accordian hose for vibration and turbulence reasons? Maybe find a solution where the hose reduces in size from the exit so the hole in the back wall can be cut smaller?

I will shut up now. Good luck. 

It has to be 6" to exhaust the hot air.

[LANCECASPER]

On 5/17/2021 at 1:22 PM, Mcstealth said:

More ramblings.

Maybe keep the accordian hose for vibration and turbulence reasons? Maybe find a solution where the hose reduces in size from the exit so the hole in the back wall can be cut smaller?

I will shut up now. Good luck. 

Just for you David . . lol

More room now in the baggage

Time to vacuum . . . 

[Mcstealth]

Hahahahaha