Martha Lunken, our region's first lady of flying, is grounded. 'It's like being disemboweled

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, MooneyMitch said:

I like your Grandma

 Me too.  She made it to 100.  She walked out of Russia with her family during WWI, walked across Europe and hitched a boat to NY.  And here we are!  The great American Ellis Island story.  She was all of 4'11'' babushka grandma and somehow I am 6'4''.  I remember looking up to her and telling her someday I would be taller than her - and I am!  I miss Grandma Sonia.  She got to meet all my sons.  She was such an upbeat and steady influence person!

[Tony Starke]

5 hours ago, RJBrown said:

In 1949 George Orwell wrote a book entitled Nineteen84 (1984)

It was a dystopian vision of the future. Written as a warning to society it has somehow become a “how to” book for certain progressive politicians. 
We are living much of what the book warns about. Everyone needs to read this book and reflect on the current state of freedom in America and the world.

I thought I was the only one who noticed. You too? How long do you give it before they start rounding us up? The ones who think for themselves that is.

 

 

[MooneyMitch]

1 hour ago, aviatoreb said:

 Me too.  She made it to 100.  She walked out of Russia with her family during WWI, walked across Europe and hitched a boat to NY.  And here we are!  The great American Ellis Island story.  She was all of 4'11'' babushka grandma and somehow I am 6'4''.  I remember looking up to her and telling her someday I would be taller than her - and I am!  I miss Grandma Sonia.  She got to meet all my sons.  She was such an upbeat and steady influence person!

An amazing person !  

[jaylw314]

10 hours ago, thinwing said:

i dont anything about her diplomatic talents...what you pose is quite possible...Harrison Ford was quite publically apologetic and humble during his land on the taxiway..there were calls to ground him permently as the danger he posed was real and well filmed...he kept is cert...but he is a likable guy

If I remember correctly, the first thing he said when he called ATC on the phone afterwards was "I'm the idiot that landed on the taxiway"

[jaylw314]

22 hours ago, Hank said:

When you piss off the Man, he takes all of your certificates. 

Once she is able to take and pass the PPL written test and check ride, she will be a VFR pilot until she accumulates XC time on her new certificates to take and pass the IFR written and check ride.

I guess whenever I've heard of enforcement actions, it's a revocation of privileges until you complete a ride with someone from the FAA satisfactorily, right?  what is that, a 447 ride or something?

[thinwing]

17 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

My Grandma took me to a movie when I was about 10 called Animal House.  She thought it was going to be a documentary about animals.  It starred Jim Belushi.  She was very frugal from her experiences from he great depression.  We stayed for the whole thing gosh darned because she paid for it.  I enjoyed it.  I think she did too.

what did grandmaw do when Belushi does the "human squeeze the zit!!

[thinwing]

2 hours ago, jaylw314 said:

I guess whenever I've heard of enforcement actions, it's a revocation of privileges until you complete a ride with someone from the FAA satisfactorily, right?  what is that, a 447 ride or something?

not quite...if FAA requests a 709 ride...your ticket is still good...BUT..if you fail the checkride or refuse to take it..than your cert is revoked.Marthas case...the FSDO office that revoked her certs is the same one she worked at and which nobody from there came to her retirement party!,which says a lot about how they felt about her.Than her writings about them were extremely unflattering....so ..its payback time.

[201Steve]

Psh. Fly under bridges why do u care if you have a license? Put on a fake mustache and run it. 

[bradp]

I guess my 8th grade English teacher was a crispy critter - the entire year we read nothing but dystopian fiction and unhappy  memoirs with one “comedy week” in the middle of the year. 

[Risk-consequence]

On 4/20/2021 at 8:16 AM, Hank said:

The willful disregard of the rules, combined with two incidents on the ground (around hangars, one involving another aircraft), is what sunk her. I don't recall the penalty after her 2nd ground incident, but wasn't that when she lost her FAA Safety Rep position?

A history of impulsive behavior suggests incipient dementia.

[A64Pilot]

2 hours ago, Risk-consequence said:

A history of impulsive behavior suggests incipient dementia.

So, in my teen age  years, dementia was just around the corner?

Impulsive behavior can be a result of many things, to include deciding I’ve had a good life, been a good person for a long time, now it’s time to have some fun.

‘I’ve seen people come back from war and that made them impulsive for awhile. and others who lost a family member, some were diagnosed with an incurable disease, lots of triggers, but I suppose impending dementia is in the list too.

Edited April 24, 2021 by A64Pilot

[A64Pilot]

What were the “ground incidents”?

[Hank]

2 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

What were the “ground incidents”?

Straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.flyingmag.com/unusual-attitudes-no-excuses-screw-up/

[toto]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

Straight from the horse's mouth:

https://www.flyingmag.com/unusual-attitudes-no-excuses-screw-up/

Didn't realize she was a DPE. That's probably going to be a lot harder to get back than her pilot certificates. 

[M016576]

On 4/20/2021 at 9:33 AM, ilovecornfields said:

Pretty sad that she doesn’t get to fly, but it sounds like she wasn’t making good choices. Executive dysfunction is common in dementia and may precede other symptoms such as memory loss

https://www.verywellhealth.com/executive-functioning-alzheimers-98596

So, someone does something incredibly unsafe and gets caught and you guys think too much surveillance is to blame? How about “don’t do stupid reckless things and you won’t lose your license?” Sounds like the DOT camera potentially saved her life and those of whomever she would have killed next time she did something reckless.

I’ve always considered my ability to fly a plane to be a temporary thing. So far I’ve had about 30 good years but one day it will end and hopefully that will happen without anyone getting hurt.

The fact that she never saw this as a likely outcome of her reckless stunt is a strong argument for her cognitive impairment.

This is very true.  
 

despite what a pilot may think of their own abilities and experience... in many circumstances, an old aircraft will hold up better than an old pilot.  (Some P-51’s are still flying... but what about those brave souls that took them airborne in their 20’s?). What “old” is, though... I’ll leave that to the professionals.

In my line of work as a fighter pilot, it’s a bit more “athletic” than GA... and in my 40’s now, I see the balance between youth, stamina, knowledge/experience and age more than I used to.  It’s definitely “a thing” in my kids parlance!  And a “peak balance” does exist in my opinion.
 

I don’t believe that “being old” can ever take away from ones accomplishments in aviation... or anything in life... but that doesn’t mean that one would be “just as qualified and capable” as they could/would be in their prime.  Those qualifications must be objective in nature, and not revisionist... for the safety of all in the National aerospace system.

just my opinion... and I’m definitely not a medical professional.

[Hank]

19 minutes ago, toto said:

Didn't realize she was a DPE. That's probably going to be a lot harder to get back than her pilot certificates. 

Since DPEs are appointed by the FAA, those people that are mad at her, and she's already 78 years old and no longer has a Commercial License, I'd say it ain't gonna happen. 

[1964-M20E]

On 4/21/2021 at 10:43 AM, Tim Jodice said:

I was 4 at the time. What happened in 1984?

The book 1984  read it very interesting.  It is happening now.   Also read Animal Farm it too is happening now as well.

[A64Pilot]

I have, and have always had a different read on the old pilot thing.

‘For some reason it’s a big deal for an old man to fly a 1000 lb airplane in the country over farm fields at 70 MPH, but no thought at all to him driving to the airport in a 5000 lb vehicle just feet away from other vehicles full of families and children with a combined speed of 140 MPH?

There have been for decades a not so small group of pilots in the country in small town airports who only fly on Sunday, they drag out their old 172’s and Cubs, Champs etc and just fly around the country side.

They fly on Sunday secure in the knowledge that no one from the FSDO works on Sunday, once in a blue moon one of them will do something stupid and maybe ruin a small amount of corn or maybe cotton when they crash, but it’s very rare, probably honestly about the same rate as new pilots crash, and no one cares.

Who are they hurting?

I have no idea who this Lady is, honestly never heard of her, but it really seems that her biggest and possibly only crime is being anti-social, which more and more in today’s society, is in fact a crime.

‘I guess that takes me to 1984, the book,not the year.

 

On edit, I bet she isn’t doing anything that she hasn’t always done, but now for whatever reason she has enemies in the FSDO, very likely all her old friends, the ones that used to protect her are gone, Retired and their replacements have it out for her, so they are watching, and pat people on the back for reporting anything she does.

I’ve seen that happen, a very good friend of mine who has had his doctorate in Aeronautical Engineering for over 40 years and has held pretty much every designation for test flights and flight analyst etc has been for a long time very critical of the FAA. He didn’t last long after the head of the Atl ACO and their Chief Test Pilot retired, pretty quickly they pulled all of his designations except Test Pilot. By leaving him as a Test Pilot they in my opinion sent the message that his age or medical status wasn’t the issue.

‘He literally wrote the book on small aircraft test flying.

Edited April 25, 2021 by A64Pilot

[GeeBee]

12 hours ago, M016576 said:

This is very true.  
 

despite what a pilot may think of their own abilities and experience... in many circumstances, an old aircraft will hold up better than an old pilot.  (Some P-51’s are still flying... but what about those brave souls that took them airborne in their 20’s?). What “old” is, though... I’ll leave that to the professionals.

In my line of work as a fighter pilot, it’s a bit more “athletic” than GA... and in my 40’s now, I see the balance between youth, stamina, knowledge/experience and age more than I used to.  It’s definitely “a thing” in my kids parlance!  And a “peak balance” does exist in my opinion.
 

I don’t believe that “being old” can ever take away from ones accomplishments in aviation... or anything in life... but that doesn’t mean that one would be “just as qualified and capable” as they could/would be in their prime.  Those qualifications must be objective in nature, and not revisionist... for the safety of all in the National aerospace system.

just my opinion... and I’m definitely not a medical professional.

One thing I discovered in airline flying starting around 60, was my First Officers were better sticks than I was. Youth has its advantages. When something went wrong, I usually handed the airplane over to the best stick, while I used my experience and management skills to manage the situation. If you notice for instance on UA 232 into KSUX, Captain Haynes never touched the controls, he managed the situation. A little different of course single pilot, but it is important to use your experience, to guide you away from situations beyond your capability. 

Its a hard thing to admit to yourself you are diminishing, but as a pilot it is your job to take stock of the resources and manage them into the possible and not the impossible. 

[gsxrpilot]

I have a hard time finding fault with what she did. No doubt many a pilot has looked at that bridge and thought about flying under it. She'd probably been thinking it for 50 years. And now, at 78, with very little to lose, she did it. 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging'" - Walt Whitman

[toto]

48 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have a hard time finding fault with what she did. No doubt many a pilot has looked at that bridge and thought about flying under it. She'd probably been thinking it for 50 years. And now, at 78, with very little to lose, she did it. 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging'" - Walt Whitman

We picked a highly-regulated activity, and there's a certain amount of red tape that we're going to encounter. There are plenty of other activities that have little or no regulatory oversight, and those activities are probably better for people who are uncomfortable with regulation. 

If she wanted to do this right, she would have applied to the FAA for a waiver, gotten permission for the exhibition flight, and taken a bunch of pictures for the magazine. 

The eyebrow-raiser for me is that she's an FAA safety inspector and a DPE, not to mention a relatively high-profile aviation writer, and impressionable people will look to her for examples of appropriate behavior.

If there's anything objectively wrong with what she did, it was in accepting a role that requires a higher standard of behavior and then performing to a lower standard. It's just kind of bizarre to see a safety inspector and DPE apologizing for cowboy piloting.

Edited April 25, 2021 by toto
Hobby-> activity

[gsxrpilot]

6 minutes ago, toto said:

We picked a highly-regulated activity

People like us have been looking at the sky and dreaming of flying for thousands of years or more. We didn't pick flight, it picked us. And it just so happens, that in this day and age, flight is highly regulated. 

I'm not opposed to the regulations, and appreciate that the regulations play a huge role in creating the safe and accessible flight environment we all enjoy today. (I get irritated by those who refuse to equip with ADSB for some reason or another)

But sometimes it's just easier to ask forgiveness, then to get permission. She possibly knew from working with the local FSDO for so many years that it wasn't going to get approved. And with the clock ticking on her Medical, she decided to do something she'd been dreaming about for many years. In the end, the punishment is likely more of a deterrent for others rather than punitive towards her. And I'm fine with that. 

If I was about to get my wings clipped... 

[toto]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

If I was about to get my wings clipped... 

Letting the thread drift a bit... 

I actually think we're in a pretty great place right now for "graceful degradation" of flying activities. With no major medical issues, a person who finds herself behind the airplane can step down to a well-equipped LSA and enjoy the heck out of it. And if the LSA becomes too much, she can step down to a Part 103 craft with a super-low stall speed and a ballistic parachute, requiring no pilot certificate and no medical. 

We're all creatures of habit, and I know that it feels like a really big deal to have to sell our pride and joy because it's gotten to be too much airplane, but I love the fact that we've got good options for lower and slower flight befitting longer reaction times that could add many years of enjoyment to a flying hobby. 

[aviatoreb]

I don't get it - why are people saying she didn't do anything?  Why is this a case of big bad FAA - FISDO out to get her a lovely old lady - old salt know-it all pilot, former every credential....

I mean she flew under a bridge,

I could go fly under a bridge.  I won't because it is strictly forbidden, whether or not I agree with that.  If you or I, or she does that strictly forbidden activity or any one of a few other very public and strictly forbidden activities, I would expect a reaction from the FAA.  This is not a criminal action.  This is simply an action of revoking her privileges that she abused. This seems expected.  Whether or not I like the rule., I quite understand why that rule is in place.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have a hard time finding fault with what she did. No doubt many a pilot has looked at that bridge and thought about flying under it. She'd probably been thinking it for 50 years. And now, at 78, with very little to lose, she did it. 

"If you done it, it ain't bragging'" - Walt Whitman

So which rules are useless, because whoever wants to can break them at any time? If Martha can fly under a bridge, so can you and I and him over there. What other regs can we break on a whim? (If you film your u der-the-bridge flight, don't post it here.)

Like many other regulations, "don't fly under bridges" was likely the result of one too many messy, bloody accidents. Do we really want to go back to that?

Or do we give free.passes only to celebrities? Who determines if a person is "enough" of a celebrity to get away with a particular infraction? We don't want to go there, either.