Vacuum System - only needed for step and PC - any concerns?

[sdflysurf]

I've removed my AI and DG from my vacuum system to install dual G5

Can I remove my suction gauge and my VAC low and VAC high indicators?

Also is there anything I should do to make sure the proper suction pressure is still there and it isn't too strong?  I plan to measure.

The only thing left is the PC wing leveler system and the retractable step.

[0TreeLemur]

Your wing leveler won't work without your Brittain DG unless you also have a Brittain gyro/valve system in the tail.  I think that is an older (pre '67 models or older) feature.   @takair has an electric step actuator that replaces the vacuum actuated retraction system.   Might was well go all in with the vacuumless system.

[jamesm]

I would expect the wing leveler to work if he keeps the turn coordinator which controls roll stability.  Unless he has an autopilot  then he would need  some form heading source.  don't quote me on this... I think someone here on MS has figured out how to connect the G5's using a GAD29B to the autopilot I can't remember if century or brittian autopilot. When my turn coordinator died the local instrument shop wouldn't repair the turn coordinator. so overtime  I pulled entire wing leveler system . For the  vacuum gauge and goes  you may consider keeping the gauge for the wing leveler to ensure that there is output from vacuum pump. If panel space is an issue  they make  a1"  vacuum gauge . The "auto step " electric conversion that replace the vacuum step servo.  It works great real easy to install.

https://flightenhancements.com/index.html

 

Just my thoughts,

James '67C

Edited March 24, 2021 by jamesm

[carusoam]

65C had a separate gyro in the tail for the Brittain...

-a-

[Igor_U]

21 hours ago, sdflysurf said:

I've removed my AI and DG from my vacuum system to install dual G5

Can I remove my suction gauge and my VAC low and VAC high indicators?

Also is there anything I should do to make sure the proper suction pressure is still there and it isn't too strong?  I plan to measure.

The only thing left is the PC wing leveler system and the retractable step.

I believe your PC system (like on my 67F) is using TC 100 turn coordinator so you are good there. I actually just updated LHS panel and removed Low-Hi lights (Expensive Sigmatec Vacuum sensor is inop) and relocated Vacuum gage from RHS panel to pilot side.  the Not sure why would you remove vacuum gage and they are typically small and mine is using 1" hole. I guess this is a question for your A&P who would sign the logbooks; I would still prefer to have a gage as long as keeping a Brittain PC (and step).

Regards,

[hmasing]

20 hours ago, jamesm said:

The "auto step " electric conversion that replace the vacuum step servo.  It works great real easy to install.

https://flightenhancements.com/index.html

+1 for the auto step!  We puled out the horrible suction step retract, and put that in when I ripped out my vacuum system 2 years ago.  Wired it to my beacon switch, which drives the step only now, since my nav beacon on the bottom was replaced with an appropriate red/white strobe.

As part of my runup checklists I now have:

Passenger Step:  Confirm UP

It's so nice.

[sdflysurf]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:43 PM, 0TreeLemur said:

Your wing leveler won't work without your Brittain DG unless you also have a Brittain gyro/valve system in the tail.  I think that is an older (pre '67 models or older) feature.   @takair has an electric step actuator that replaces the vacuum actuated retraction system.   Might was well go all in with the vacuumless system.

The DG was strictly vacuum - didn't seem to have any connection to the PC system and it wasn't doing so well (precessing - so I am happy to have it replaced with the G5)  The Brittain Turn Co-ordinator is the only thing that works the PC wing leveler that I see.

[RobertGary1]

Put the AI back in and enjoy an extra free backup attitude indicator. When it dies then toss it. Also when the DPE covers up the attitude indicator you still have a full HSI and don't need to revert it.

[Bob E]

I did basically the same thing - removed the vacuum instruments for dual G5's - but I also removed the entire vacuum system.  I lashed the step in the up position with the intent of getting a Flight Enhancements electric step conversion later, but so far I haven't seen any need for the step.  The PC wing leveler was more trouble that it was worth -- expensive to replace the boots, not to mention the gyro (which is in the back in my '65), and I don't miss it at all. Now I don't have to worry about vacuum failures or gyro overhauls.  (Except for the one remaining electric gyro:  the turn & slip.)

[tony]

On 3/25/2021 at 3:33 AM, Bob E said:

 .....but I also removed the entire vacuum system.  

For your awareness:  I researched this for a friend a while back.  The TCDS says that the vacuum pump is required for IFR flight,  but optional for VFR flight.   This note applies to models up to a G.  I understand the logic of your decision, but I would like you to also understand the legal ramifications as well.  

ref:  http://www.accelerationtech.com/photos/mooney/TypeCert/FAA-Type-Cert-Mooney-2A3.pdf

 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, tony said:

For your awareness:  I researched this for a friend a while back.  The TCDS says that the vacuum pump is required for IFR flight,  but optional for VFR flight.   This note applies to models up to a G.  I understand the logic of your decision, but I would like you to also understand the legal ramifications as well.  

ref:  http://www.accelerationtech.com/photos/mooney/TypeCert/FAA-Type-Cert-Mooney-2A3.pdf

 

Except you have to read very far down in the tcds notes, the “small print”.  There’s an allowance to remove the vacuum for all models equipped with appropriate certified electronic ADI systems.  
 

your link is from 2002, and potentially not current.

Heres the current faa:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/6ea0f05ecca8304486258305006833cf/$FILE/2A3_Rev_58.pdf

Edited July 11, 2021 by Ragsf15e

[RobertGary1]

On 3/23/2021 at 3:29 PM, sdflysurf said:

I've removed my AI and DG from my vacuum system to install dual G5

Can I remove my suction gauge and my VAC low and VAC high indicators?

Also is there anything I should do to make sure the proper suction pressure is still there and it isn't too strong?  I plan to measure.

The only thing left is the PC wing leveler system and the retractable step.

Having had dual AHRS failures in Garmin gear I would say the vacuum system is an amazingly inexpensive way to have backup attitude. I didn’t and won’t remove mine with dual 275’s. 

[Ragsf15e]

1 hour ago, tony said:

For your awareness:  I researched this for a friend a while back.  The TCDS says that the vacuum pump is required for IFR flight,  but optional for VFR flight.   This note applies to models up to a G.  I understand the logic of your decision, but I would like you to also understand the legal ramifications as well.  

ref:  http://www.accelerationtech.com/photos/mooney/TypeCert/FAA-Type-Cert-Mooney-2A3.pdf

 

Here’s the note.  The tcds you cited is from 2002, current is 2018 on the faa website.

[tony]

13 minutes ago, Ragsf15e said:

Except you have to read very far down in the tcds notes, the “small print”.  There’s an allowance to remove the vacuum for all models equipped with appropriate certified electronic ADI systems.  
 

your link is from 2002, and potentially not current.

Heres the current faa:

https://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/6ea0f05ecca8304486258305006833cf/$FILE/2A3_Rev_58.pdf

Rags, thanks!!  I see note 24.  I'll pass along the info.